Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: in der nähe von München
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject:
Jim, vis-a-vis no swimming, you'll need to qualify what closer to the days is then.
Twenty minutes 'down' could easily become 30 or more with poor preparation, as 3.8km in the sea is a very long way when you're under conditioned; plus there's the knock-on effect this has on the rest of the IM. Being a sea swim, it's all the more important to be well prepared and conditioned; the less time that can be spent bobbing up & down drinking salt water, whilst being chafed (doubly) by your wetsuit....the better!
CC - do you still live near Tweenster? If so, getting out on the bike with him will help _________________ Clitus I'm bored, what plaything can you offer me today?
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2864 Location: Kingston
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
Jim, vis-a-vis no swimming, you'll need to qualify what closer to the days is then.
8-10 weeks out, I'd also suggest a lot of time during the taper swimming at the venue getting comfortable in the conditions there, but I think everyone does that anyway unless they're going to a local one!
_________________ Jibbering Sports Stuff
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: in der nähe von München
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject:
jibberjim wrote:
I'd also suggest a lot of time during the taper swimming at the venue getting comfortable in the conditions there, but I think everyone does that anyway unless they're going to a local one!
That would work for Long-Haul events; most people only arrive at a European event 2-3 days beforehand, so some confidence building (orientation) is possible rather than any form of conditioning.
I think no swimming between now and the beginning of May is counterproductive.
This is like Table Tennis _________________ Clitus I'm bored, what plaything can you offer me today?
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2864 Location: Kingston
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
any form of conditioning.
I think this is the fundamental thrust of our difference in views, my viewpoint is that condition doesn't matter much once you're technique is there for sub 80 minutes. Because the low intensity you're swimming at, it's just technique, your condition is almost irrelevant, it's more do you remember still how to swim.
Do you agree that there's not much point doing more than sufficient swimming to maintain the pace rather than more work to try and improve it? So all we're disagreeing on is if zero swimming 3-5 months out is enough to maintain?
_________________ Jibbering Sports Stuff
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: in der nähe von München
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject:
jibberjim wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
any form of conditioning.
I think this is the fundamental thrust of our difference in views, my viewpoint is that condition doesn't matter much once you're technique is there for sub 80 minutes. Because the low intensity you're swimming at, it's just technique, your condition is almost irrelevant, it's more do you remember still how to swim.
Do you agree that there's not much point doing more than sufficient swimming to maintain the pace rather than more work to try and improve it? So all we're disagreeing on is if zero swimming 3-5 months out is enough to maintain?
Yes, you're right about where we differ in opinion.
I don't believe you can 'maintain' with no sport-specific training for several months; there are some fundamental reasons behind this. When I say conditioning, I don't just refer to cardiovascular, I also mean flexibility and strength related to the discipline of swimming. The older you get, the more this becomes a factor. Swimming has little or no relation to the other two disciplines, hence why it's a relative weakness for so many triathletes. You can't just stay fit on dry land and expect it to transfer, as it won't. Otherwise it would be standard practice for elite's not to swim pre-season....but it isn't.
Just about anyone who swims regularly and has several weeks break will testify to this. A week, maybe two weeks can be considered a 'rest' ....but two or three months, when it's not a particular strength is certainly detrimental.
However, I would agree that it's diminishing returns with swimming i.e. given its 'weight' in the IM, once you get to a reasonable std, it's worth just maintaining that and concentrating on the other two. But that doesn't mean doing nothing!
This echos my opening salvo on the Thread.
_________________ Clitus I'm bored, what plaything can you offer me today?
Joined: 25 Jun 2006 Posts: 1544 Location: back home
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
... Being a sea swim, it's all the more important to be well prepared and conditioned; the less time that can be spent bobbing up & down drinking salt water, whilst being chafed (doubly) by your wetsuit....the better!
CC - do you still live near Tweenster? If so, getting out on the bike with him will help
Yes, I do still live near Tweens, we ride out on the weekends. He is a nice bloke, he lets me draft him all the way home
My 1:12 was a non-wetsuit IM as well. _________________ "Coffee is the lifeblood that fuels the dreams of champions."
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2864 Location: Kingston
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
Swimming has little or no relation to the other two disciplines, hence why it's a relative weakness for so many triathletes. You can't just stay fit on dry land and expect it to transfer, as it won't. Otherwise it would be standard practice for elite's not to swim pre-season....but it isn't.
I agree with all of this, swimming is different, it's a technical event so totally different. It's also different for the pros as they absolutely have to swim fast to be with a fast pro group for the (legal) draft benefits, an Age Grouper doesn't, because they'll have packs there anyway. So again, I think the rules are different for Pros and Age Groupers here.
Seem to be saying do nothing for everyone, even more than me who's just saying those of you who already have the technique down. My general despair is seeing all these people losing hours on the bike and run, devoting so much time to swim training.
_________________ Jibbering Sports Stuff
Let me throw my tuppence in to the ring, if I may.
CC has 20 weeks to IM France. I reckon he has good run endurance from his MdS prep last year, even if he may lack some speed. His swim technique is OK, although I have no doubt that he has lost some swimming specific fitness over the last year or so. But his cycling has always been a weak point and he has most to gain from spending time working on this. Yes, he could spend hours in the pool to gain (or maybe not lose) 20 minutes in the swim, but by concentrating on the bike he has the potential to gain an hour over his IMDE time, even though Nice is a much tougher bike course.
In Germany CC swam 1.12. I swam 1.38 (it's a long story involving a lack of a wetsuit). Even so, I was well up on CC into T2 having biked an hour or so faster. Our run times were both poor in the 34 degree heat! With a tough bike in Nice I reckon spending time now improving his bike would be good; maybe tick over on the swim but no need (IMHO) to waste time in the water when there are bigger gains to be had on the bike.
I'm not advocating not swimming, but these sessions could be done on 'recovery' days, just to get the arms moving again. Coz I plan on making his legs ache! _________________ 2010 IM Distance Relays: 8 Aug The Outlaw (5.14.36 bike); 3 Oct Challenge Barcelona
New Forest Spring Sportive 4:21; Jurassic Beast Sportive 6:11; Magnificat 200km 7:41; Woodcote Sportive 4:51; New Forest Rattler 4:00; Southern Sportive
Last edited by tweenster on Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
It's not a proper IM if you wear a wetsuit!
_________________ 2010 IM Distance Relays: 8 Aug The Outlaw (5.14.36 bike); 3 Oct Challenge Barcelona
New Forest Spring Sportive 4:21; Jurassic Beast Sportive 6:11; Magnificat 200km 7:41; Woodcote Sportive 4:51; New Forest Rattler 4:00; Southern Sportive
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: in der nähe von München
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject:
I don't see the problem with giving swimming a rest at the end of the season, but he's now 20 weeks out from his A Race. 15 hrs is loads of training a week, more than enough for CCs goals. So plenty of time to fit it all in. To quote your link Jim:
"I make sure to have fun now, and then buckle down the last 4 months to race day."
That's the opposite of what you're proposing; the timing's wrong. Your beliefs are based on what you think, which in turn, is based purely on what you've read. Our conversation could go a little like this scene from a well known film:
Animal Mother: You a photographer?
Private Joker: I'm a combat correspondent.
Animal Mother: Well, you seen much combat?
Private Joker: I've seen a little on TV _________________ Clitus I'm bored, what plaything can you offer me today?
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2864 Location: Kingston
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
"I make sure to have fun now, and then buckle down the last 4 months to race day."
That's the opposite of what you're proposing; the timing's wrong. Your beliefs are based on what you think, which in turn, is based purely on what you've read.
No, it's from the experience of athletes I've been close to who've won their age group and swam sub 65 minutes on 10 hours swimming. 4 months and 2 1/2 months is not hugely different, either way it means no swimming 5 months out of the event.
_________________ Jibbering Sports Stuff
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: in der nähe von München
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:38 am Post subject:
Jibberjim. I think there are a lot of people on here who listen to your advice, and much of it is very good. However, to be fair, I think practically all of your Triathlon knowledge is based on one individual to whom you're very close; either that or you've gleened it from articles & studies. There's nothing wrong with that, but much of it is written in a way that would have many people (who don't know you) believe that you learned it from personal experience.
In all likelihood very few people will read this, and a lot people looking for advice on approaching their first IM will be blissfully unaware of the fact when taking your advice on-board. Anyway, it's a free world _________________ Clitus I'm bored, what plaything can you offer me today?
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2864 Location: Kingston
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:55 am Post subject:
Jorgan wrote:
However, to be fair, I think practically all of your Triathlon knowledge is based on one individual to whom you're very close; either that or you've gleened it from articles & studies. There's nothing wrong with that, but much of it is written in a way that would have many people (who don't know you) believe that you learned it from personal experience.
I always try to make it clear I'm not a swimmer, and I don't think my personal experience in the bike and run is irrelevant there either. And I talk with a lot of other triathletes about the training. But I'll try and make it clearer what the context is, and keep challenging - debate is what makes forums useful!
_________________ Jibbering Sports Stuff
sorry to digress from the swim debate, but to become a faster runner i pretty much follow the interval/tempo/LSD run every week. Do you guys also do the equivalent bike sessions per week or does this risk injury too much. My understanding is that its better to work on the run for a few weeks and just tick over with the bike, then swap after a few weeks then work on becoming stronger on the bike and tick over with the run. I have no idea if this is a good idea or not,
Advice appreciated
cheers
Joined: 25 Jun 2006 Posts: 1544 Location: back home
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject:
chickenboy,
Ther advice in 'Going Long' is to break your training down as follows - Prep (to get you used to training), Base (To condition), Build (Increasing intensity), Peak (and taper). They suggest a 3 week cycle, easy/harder/hardest and structuring your training so that your long run and long bike are seperated by a few days. (ie long run Weds, long bike Sun). They don't believe in monster weekends that leave you knackered/ill for days. (Until the longer race simulation bricks in the late Build and Peak phases).
Hope this helps.
_________________ "Coffee is the lifeblood that fuels the dreams of champions."
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