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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:25 am Post subject: The irony rolls on... |
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...as 5 white old men complain about the FA being full of white old men..
i suppose Dyke is trying to do something...but like those heads of the armed forces or that lady from social services (I think)..., if you are not strongly engaged in change whilst in appointment perhaps you should have to repay your salary/pension if it then transpires you did fek all about it but moan afterwards...
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Ejc
Two thoughts
1. Change is difficult, while it revolves around us all the time, organisations have a great deal of inertia towards change, for good reasons. It takes a brave person who is willing to stand up to peers and say "hold on we need to stop doing this or start doing that" especially if it is outwith the core purpose of the organisation. People tend to surround themselves with yes men which doesn't make it any easier.
2. It is always easier to see the wood from the trees from a distant hill than from the middle of the forest. It takes huge amounts of energy and willpower to truly stand back and look at the bigger picture, while you are busy, stressed, and getting through the middle.
Trying to change people's attitudes for the better is very difficult for these reasons, even if change is for the common good. People have to get through belief and attitude barriers. It's human nature.
Why do you think that a lot of change, even in science, only occurs when people die off and others feel that they can then point out the obvious in a well connected, influential persons views? (Thinking as an eg the chap who initially found, and iirc, miscounted chromosomes. Even though everyone knew he got his addition wrong, no one said anything until he died. I am told that for all science progresses, it is commonly held back by such dominant reputations and, quite frankly, fear of pointing things out. Though clearly I may be misinformed or misremembering.
I have stood up to people in power who were in my opinion doing things wrong (in this case in my opinion bullying a woman in committee). Jeepers did I pay a price for that.
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explorerJC
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2913
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: | Of course change is difficult...
...but it is much harder if you don't try to change.... |
i agree.
Why do you think that I have gained myself such a wide variety of education and through being forced to through an unusually wide variety of life experiences Ejc? I understand all of this from first hand experience.
The harsh reality and fact remains though, that for those (including myself a couple of decades ago) who are forced through change, can get broken, lost, and subject to duress from others, remarkably easily.
Nowadays I am of the opinion that what matters, what is important, is to make people think. And then, if they want to, to offer them a helping hand to progress forwards. I comprehend now that inducing change too quickly can fracture, people, families and organisations, so it is better to illuminate the way as opposed to boot up the arse.
Now take this from a different perspective Ejc, and reflect back to your original post. If you try to change an organisation from within it can be pretty much impossible (which I know goes against conventional wisdom), sometimes you must be external to enable progress. And sometimes it takes decades for attitudes to evolve sufficiently to enable positive change to happen.
Why? Because the energy of power structures (which are necessary to get things done) needs to be actively questioned. And not many in power like to be questioned. This is where Star Treks First Officer is brilliant. Sadly in real life bullying, intolerance, egos, need to keep a job and income etc, all too often rule the day.
Leaders like to be popular when what they really need to be is a bit lonely. Respected through inspiring people's hearts, but not part of a clique that can't be challenged nor questioned.
Last edited by SloggingScotsman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15757
Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| SloggingScotsman wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | Of course change is difficult...
...but it is much harder if you don't try to change.... |
i agree.
Why do you think that I have gained myself such a wide variety of education and through being forced to through an unusually wide variety of life experiences GrahamO? I understand all of this from first hand experience.
The harsh reality and fact remains though, that for those (including myself a couple of decades ago) who are forced through change, can get broken, lost, and subject to duress from others, remarkably easily.
Nowadays I am of the opinion that what matters, what is important, is to make people think. And then, if they want to, to offer them a helping hand to progress forwards. I comprehend now that inducing change too quickly can fracture, people, families and organisations, so it is better to illuminate the way as opposed to boot up the arse.
Now take this from a different perspective GrahamO, and reflect back to your original post. If you try to change an organisation from within it can be pretty much impossible (which I know goes against conventional wisdom), sometimes you must be external to enable progress. And sometimes it takes decades for attitudes to evolve sufficiently to enable positive change to happen.
Why? Because the energy of power structures (which are necessary to get things done) needs to be actively questioned. And not many in power like to be questioned. This is where Star Treks First Officer is brilliant. Sadly in real life bullying, intolerance, egos, need to keep a job and income etc, all too often rule the day.
Leaders like to be popular when what they really need to be is a bit lonely. Respected through inspiring people's hearts, but not part of a clique that can't be challenged nor questioned. |
i have been called many things in my time...but I am not sure which of us should be less flattered...
....if you recognise shortcomings from within but are willing to take the dosh and do nothing about them, then not only is that reinforcing the culture, it also morally wrong...
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2913
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: | | SloggingScotsman wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | Of course change is difficult...
...but it is much harder if you don't try to change.... |
i agree.
Why do you think that I have gained myself such a wide variety of education and through being forced to through an unusually wide variety of life experiences GrahamO? I understand all of this from first hand experience.
The harsh reality and fact remains though, that for those (including myself a couple of decades ago) who are forced through change, can get broken, lost, and subject to duress from others, remarkably easily.
Nowadays I am of the opinion that what matters, what is important, is to make people think. And then, if they want to, to offer them a helping hand to progress forwards. I comprehend now that inducing change too quickly can fracture, people, families and organisations, so it is better to illuminate the way as opposed to boot up the arse.
Now take this from a different perspective GrahamO, and reflect back to your original post. If you try to change an organisation from within it can be pretty much impossible (which I know goes against conventional wisdom), sometimes you must be external to enable progress. And sometimes it takes decades for attitudes to evolve sufficiently to enable positive change to happen.
Why? Because the energy of power structures (which are necessary to get things done) needs to be actively questioned. And not many in power like to be questioned. This is where Star Treks First Officer is brilliant. Sadly in real life bullying, intolerance, egos, need to keep a job and income etc, all too often rule the day.
Leaders like to be popular when what they really need to be is a bit lonely. Respected through inspiring people's hearts, but not part of a clique that can't be challenged nor questioned. |
i have been called many things in my time...but I am not sure which of us should be less flattered...
....if you recognise shortcomings from within but are willing to take the dosh and do nothing about them, then not only is that reinforcing the culture, it also morally wrong... |
I agree Ejc. But that is what happens. Is is one of the dark effects of how establishments work.
Ask yourself this Ejc. How many people do you know who stood up and said "this is wrong"? What generally happen to them?
I can assure you that it is not a pleasant place to be. And you would be amazed how many people keep their mouths shut when it matters. I only ever saw one other person support against the boss publicly, and a couple privately.
You end up being the bad guy who gets broken for trying to do the right thing.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15757
Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| SloggingScotsman wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | SloggingScotsman wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | Of course change is difficult...
...but it is much harder if you don't try to change.... |
i agree.
Why do you think that I have gained myself such a wide variety of education and through being forced to through an unusually wide variety of life experiences GrahamO? I understand all of this from first hand experience.
The harsh reality and fact remains though, that for those (including myself a couple of decades ago) who are forced through change, can get broken, lost, and subject to duress from others, remarkably easily.
Nowadays I am of the opinion that what matters, what is important, is to make people think. And then, if they want to, to offer them a helping hand to progress forwards. I comprehend now that inducing change too quickly can fracture, people, families and organisations, so it is better to illuminate the way as opposed to boot up the arse.
Now take this from a different perspective GrahamO, and reflect back to your original post. If you try to change an organisation from within it can be pretty much impossible (which I know goes against conventional wisdom), sometimes you must be external to enable progress. And sometimes it takes decades for attitudes to evolve sufficiently to enable positive change to happen.
Why? Because the energy of power structures (which are necessary to get things done) needs to be actively questioned. And not many in power like to be questioned. This is where Star Treks First Officer is brilliant. Sadly in real life bullying, intolerance, egos, need to keep a job and income etc, all too often rule the day.
Leaders like to be popular when what they really need to be is a bit lonely. Respected through inspiring people's hearts, but not part of a clique that can't be challenged nor questioned. |
i have been called many things in my time...but I am not sure which of us should be less flattered...
....if you recognise shortcomings from within but are willing to take the dosh and do nothing about them, then not only is that reinforcing the culture, it also morally wrong... |
I agree Ejc. But that is what happens. Is is one of the dark effects of how establishments work.
Ask yourself this Ejc. How many people do you know who stood up and said "this is wrong"? What generally happen to them?
I can assure you that it is not a pleasant place to be. And you would be amazed how many people keep their mouths shut when it matters. I only ever saw one other person support against the boss publicly, and a couple privately.
You end up being the bad guy who gets broken for trying to do the right thing. |
so, better you take the cash and let someone else sort out the mess...
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: |
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No, I am not saying that Ejc, remember I have been that pain in the ass who tried to do the right thing.
I am just saying that it is easy to say what people should do, and have explained above why when push comes to shove very few do, and how difficult your life can become once you do.
The harsh reality is that organisations prefer to enable bad leadership actions to doing the right thing.
It won't change until humanity evolves sufficiently so that there is a critical point of enough is enough. Or leaders are chosen better.
While what I stood up to was relatively minor, in the general scheme of things ejc I can only imagine how bad life gets for whistleblowers and the like. Regardless of any legal protections.
It's easy to talk the talk and very very tough to walk the walk and to then live with the consequences afterwards. That's the harsh reality.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: | | we are not talking some middle manager sticking their neck on the line, we are talking heads of sheds who probably don't need the money, who have the power, the presence and the authority to make change who choose not to... |
in which case I agree.
But we still have the social clubs, rank and prestige and reputation there to think about, and not forgetting pressures that can get applied via wife's not to rock the or their boat for their social "status and life".
Human nature Ejc is a funny thing. Pretty much everyone wants to do the right thing, but there are so so many obstacles to it, due to the way establishments work. (Not knocking the establishment it is vital this is just one of its weaknesses).
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| SloggingScotsman wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | we are not talking some middle manager sticking their neck on the line, we are talking heads of sheds who probably don't need the money, who have the power, the presence and the authority to make change who choose not to... |
in which case I agree.
But we still have the social clubs, rank and prestige and reputation there to think about, and not forgetting pressures that can get applied via wife's not to rock the or their boat for their social "status and life".
Human nature Ejc is a funny thing. Pretty much everyone wants to do the right thing, but there are so so many obstacles to it, due to the way establishments work. (Not knocking the establishment it is vital this is just one of its weaknesses). |
but they are the establishment, which is why i object to their approach...
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 17608
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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All these organisations just replace those tainted old white men with slightly younger white men from what I can tell. FIFA, IAAF, UCI, BBC, FA and so on. All the Major League sports in the US are headed by old white men too; despite the demographics.
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veggieboy
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 6095
Location: Wearing Hokas/Altras/Sketchers and Ashmei - looking good is more important than running fast
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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and too many of them are meat eaters as well
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Cobbie
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 7447
Location: Chester
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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People resond to incentives and at the moment there is no incentive for those running football to change - note how FIFA is re-trenching itself without really changing ...
I find myself agreeing with both EJC and SS, perhaps my day job as an improvement consultant allows me to see both the hope and fear of change.
What's ultimately required is a burning bridge, change is much easier when there's no choice.
BTW, EJC, I think you took being confused with GrahamO very well - if that had been me I'd have been livid 
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SloggingScotsman
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Oops well spotted Cobbie.
GrahamO must inspire me!
Still getting over you agreeing with me!
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