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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Right Next Door To Hell

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
TriSam wrote:
How do you do freestyle with a kickboard? Glad it's going well


i asked that before...i assume just getting balance in the water...but there are better ways...


With difficulty! Trying to keep my body square and not let my hands cross over.

Doesn't do much for the arm pulls. It's becoming a bit of a comfort blanket, so I'm going to ditch it soon. Issue is, without it, I feel I'm not near enough the surface and can start to overthink then panic. I've ordered a set of fins, instructor's suggestion, to assist with the kick, so that I can start fully concentrating on arms/stroke/breathing.

Sometimes doesn't feel like it sound like it when I'm posting, but I do genuinely feel I've made a lot of progress.


so, in effect, you are doing a form of 'catch up' with a float...are you able to rotate doing this?


sounds like a form of that or single arm with a float. It was how I was taught to swim 35years ago! El Niņo did a similar thing but now does single arm without a float (which is the progression once they can swim comfortably). Sounds like they've gone back to basics which is no bad thing with a novice / improver swimmer but its teaching rather than what we are used to doing. I feel many clubs would do well to employ one. My clubs juniors used to have one for the very young kids rather than "coaching" them. Really brought their strokes on. I really admire the way some swim teachers work. A difficult job.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
so, in effect, you are doing a form of 'catch up' with a float...are you able to rotate doing this?

Did 2*50m of this mixed in as part of our club session last Friday. It was rather weird. You could rotate somewhat, but it is a bit restrictive. One thing that was really noticeable is how switching hands with the kb killed the timing of "feeling the water" at the start of the stroke/the catch, way more so than normal catch up.

In some ways I can see a small benefit in dropping this in every so often, as it really accentuated the hand and arm movements at the beginning of each stroke, as its' a stationary starting point.
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DrClean




Joined: 25 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duplicate
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Last edited by DrClean on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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DrClean




Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 830
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From his description I assume he's putting it in between his legs, much like a Pull Buoy. Using it for Catch Up, a reasonable drill, is more likely to lower the legs due to pushing down on the pull buoy to get the head out of the water to breathe.

The problems with the Catch Up to Kick Board drill is that: 1. most swimmers will come off the back of the kick board, dropping the elbow in the process. In effect one should come off the side of the board, leaving the elbow on the surface and getting into the Early Vertical Forearm position. 2. Many place the recovering hand on the centre of the board instead of placing it on the edge. Coming to the edge of the board promotes entering the water at shoulder width and with a flat hand entry. I assume the problem

Stenard had was coming off the back of the board - coming off the side should increase the feel for the water not reduce it.

A good drill with the kick board between the legs is to touch the kick board with the recovering hand before the recovery. This elongates the stroke and tends to stop crossing over the centre line with the stroking arm.

Fins add speed, speed adds to buoyancy and enable the swimmer to rotate less to breathe.

Cheers
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1325

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrClean wrote:
From his description I assume he's putting it in between his legs, much like a Pull Buoy. Using it for Catch Up, a reasonable drill, is more likely to lower the legs due to pushing down on the pull buoy to get the head out of the water to breathe.

The problems with the Catch Up to Kick Board drill is that: 1. most swimmers will come off the back of the kick board, dropping the elbow in the process. In effect one should come off the side of the board, leaving the elbow on the surface and getting into the Early Vertical Forearm position. 2. Many place the recovering hand on the centre of the board instead of placing it on the edge. Coming to the edge of the board promotes entering the water at shoulder width and with a flat hand entry. I assume the problem

Stenard had was coming off the back of the board - coming off the side should increase the feel for the water not reduce it.

A good drill with the kick board between the legs is to touch the kick board with the recovering hand before the recovery. This elongates the stroke and tends to stop crossing over the centre line with the stroking arm.

Fins add speed, speed adds to buoyancy and enable the swimmer to rotate less to breathe.

Cheers

Interesting comments. Will take on board the hand placement points for catch up with a kb out front.

As for kb between the legs, that's something we do all the time. That emphasises rotation, as you have to actively engage your core to rotate against the keel-like kb which creates resistance. I like that drill a lot, and always find my rotation much more natural and automatic once I go back to normal swimming afterwards.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just getting used to using it in my hands, feck using it between my legs! For now.............

What's your opinion on the use of fins?
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fins are a useful toy for drills, especially if you have a weak kick. Also they can be useful for helping build flexibility in the ankles. As everything its a tool to use sparingly and for a specific reason, not just because its a crutch to mask poor kick mechanics. Be careful as quite a few pools in the UK dont allow their use
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll not use them for long, just long enough to be able to concentrate on stroke/breathing.
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PhilleusPhogg




Joined: 11 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
fins are a useful toy for drills, especially if you have a weak kick. Also they can be useful for helping build flexibility in the ankles. As everything its a tool to use sparingly and for a specific reason, not just because its a crutch to mask poor kick mechanics. Be careful as quite a few pools in the UK dont allow their use


I initially was advised to use fins for drills when I was getting 1-2-1 lessons in an endless pool, but found although they helped the drill, particularly in the lesson so I could focus on what the arms were doing, when I swam on my own in the pool the rotation and kick with the fins didn't feel natural and seemed totally different to swimming without, such that the front end stuff I should've been learning felt different as soon as the fins came off and I was swimming normally.

So in that situation would you perhaps advise to actually learn to kick first, since really that's an important facet of FC that should be learnt sooner rather than later anyway? I guess it's a risk that people get fed-up learning to kick rather than doing arm-based stuff, but in my experience of moving from cr&p swimmer to mediocre swimmer, working on the kick made a massive difference.

I guess the question could be rephrased as; if you had a newbie swimmer with unlimited patience that you were building from the ground up, would you start with the kick and body position in the water first?
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First practice with the fins on Wednesday night, oh my! What a difference! Really notice a difference with them helping the kick. Can now concentrate fully on getting my arms/breathing sorted.

I'm feel I'm so close (ok, maybe sometimes not!) to getting this. First ever tri in May (I'm on a waiting list as it's full). I may have to split it between breast stroke and freestyle as I can see perfecting freestyle will take at least the rest of this year.
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