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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14081
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fat buddha wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
a triathlon club membership card is not sufficient, you need a national federation membership card (such as the TE one) as proof of a race licence - and that's assuming that you bought a full race licence as TE do offer other membership options such as Associate which is not race valid


Ah. poo-poops.



there is another option - forge one from your local GP or another medic you might know and who is happy to help. I have done that in the past for a French marathon where a triathlon licence isn't valid.


Forgery? Are you sure that's wise?
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
a triathlon club membership card is not sufficient, you need a national federation membership card (such as the TE one) as proof of a race licence - and that's assuming that you bought a full race licence as TE do offer other membership options such as Associate which is not race valid


Ah. poo-poops.



there is another option - forge one from your local GP or another medic you might know and who is happy to help. I have done that in the past for a French marathon where a triathlon licence isn't valid.


Forgery? Are you sure that's wise?
forget about wise, think legal.

Any lawyers here?


Worst case scenario you win a cash or goods prize, and collapse. Things get checked. Ah fraudulent race entry, money gained by deception, fraud and money laundering....of to the depths of French prison. Criminal record no more visiting America or Australian travels, lost job, etc.

That said I don't have a clue about French law, but seriously I would think twice. Rules are there for a reason.

(Over simplification for anyone who doesn't know, in the U.K. At least money laundering can be applied to lots of crimes you might not expect).
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 692
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
a triathlon club membership card is not sufficient, you need a national federation membership card (such as the TE one) as proof of a race licence - and that's assuming that you bought a full race licence as TE do offer other membership options such as Associate which is not race valid


Ah. poo-poops.



there is another option - forge one from your local GP or another medic you might know and who is happy to help. I have done that in the past for a French marathon where a triathlon licence isn't valid.


Forgery? Are you sure that's wise?
forget about wise, think legal.

Any lawyers here?


Worst case scenario you win a cash or goods prize, and collapse. Things get checked. Ah fraudulent race entry, money gained by deception, fraud and money laundering....of to the depths of French prison. Criminal record no more visiting America or Australian travels, lost job, etc.

That said I don't have a clue about French law, but seriously I would think twice. Rules are there for a reason.

(Over simplification for anyone who doesn't know, in the U.K. At least money laundering can be applied to lots of crimes you might not expect).



That's quite a long sequence of unlikely events though.

Not least, in my case, the HIGHLY unlikely probability of actually winning the race.....
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fat buddha




Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 2283
Location: rural Zuzzex

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
fat buddha wrote:
a triathlon club membership card is not sufficient, you need a national federation membership card (such as the TE one) as proof of a race licence - and that's assuming that you bought a full race licence as TE do offer other membership options such as Associate which is not race valid


Ah. poo-poops.



there is another option - forge one from your local GP or another medic you might know and who is happy to help. I have done that in the past for a French marathon where a triathlon licence isn't valid.


Forgery? Are you sure that's wise?


no - probably not wise, but is a route that an awful lot of people take when confronted with the costs of getting a Dr's med cert for an event that they are a) unlikely to win, b) not go balls out in and c) would happily do a similar, or more competitive, event in the UK. and there are a couple of words that I should have put into my comment and should really read

"here is another option - forge one from your local GP, or get one from another medic you might know and who is happy to help. I have done that latter one in the past for a French marathon where a triathlon licence isn't valid."

in my case, this was for Marathon du Medoc, which if you don't know is run around some of the finest vineyards near Bordeaux, in fancy gear, sampling various wines en route. a fun event rather than a competitive race for 99% of participants. a doctor friend (a member of the Marathon 100 club) wrote me a certificate for free.

so I didn't forge one, but I have heard plenty of tales of others who have to save a few quid and hassle.

you can argue that maybe UK events should require med certs to compete as per France (and I believe some other countries). but we have a culture that says, "you're good to go and if anything happens it's your problem and the NHS will help out if possible"

what checks are done by the BTF to ensure an athlete is fit to race before granting a race licence? none. many organisers do say somewhere that you should ensure you are fit to compete in and finish the distance you are entering, but nothing about getting fully checked by a doc.

and BTF rules state

"2.4 Health:
a.) Triathlons and related multisports are strenuous. To be able to participate, competitors should be in good physical condition. Their health and welfare is of paramount importance. By starting in a race, the competitors declare they are in good health and are in appropriate physical condition to complete the race;
b.) It is the responsibility of all competitors to ensure they are able to complete the specific race distances entered comfortably;"

and that's the limit of it. Juniors are advised to get medical check ups as they are still developing and may have underlying undiagnosed conditions that are often not apparent in their age group but could become apparent under strenuous racing. Adults are expected to know better. Rolling Eyes

it's an interesting discussion and I only mentioned "forgery" as it's a route that I know many have taken but don't necessarily condone it.
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Last edited by fat buddha on Fri May 12, 2017 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iainm




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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a bunch of triathlons in France and showing my BTF card has always been sufficient.
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fat buddha




Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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Location: rural Zuzzex

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iainm wrote:
I've done a bunch of triathlons in France and showing my BTF card has always been sufficient.


likewise - but the OP didn't have a BTF race licence, which is why this came up, and he has now corrected that.
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Homer




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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if you have a BTF race license/membership, you do not need a medical certificate to race as well? Or have I got that totally wrong.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer wrote:
So if you have a BTF race license/membership, you do not need a medical certificate to race as well? Or have I got that totally wrong.


Correct.

You don't need a medical certificate to race In France you need a medical cert to get a Day Licence. (I assume a National licence in France also requires this)

If you have a National licence (BTF/TE) you don't require a Day Licence and as such no medical is required to get one. A licence is basically insurance.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2029
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fat buddha wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
Don't forget this permit as well.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/law-change-for-uk-drivers-in-french-cities/


at the mo, that only applies in Paris, Lyon and Grenoble but no doubt will extend to others in the future. TP doesn't need to worry about this for where he's heading - unless he goes into any of those 3 on his travels


...you say that, buuut. I drove into and stayed over in Lyon last night! I had no idea I needed a sticker to tell everyone what a bad polluter I am, I'm guessing a red 5 on their Richter scale for a 3.2 flat six.

Anyway, I've spent the last three hours reassembling and tweaking my bike in my hotel room - I should've paid someone else to do it.

It's completely fine... apart from the rubbing rear wheel, RD torque, stem bolt cover, chainring torque, FB cable end, bar angle, seat setback and seat height.

Time to drag the bike into the fitters tent and pay them some money!
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
Homer wrote:
So if you have a BTF race license/membership, you do not need a medical certificate to race as well? Or have I got that totally wrong.


Correct.

You don't need a medical certificate to race In France you need a medical cert to get a Day Licence. (I assume a National licence in France also requires this)

If you have a National licence (BTF/TE) you don't require a Day Licence and as such no medical is required to get one. A licence is basically insurance.


BTF told me that their race license would but that their insurance would not cover Ironman events, except "some" in the UK.
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fat buddha




Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the avoidance of doubt regarding racing in Europe with a BTF licence - these are the facts.

1. if the multisport event you are doing is in a European country that's a member of the ETU, and the event is permitted by that country's federation (as per a BTF permit in the UK), then your BTF race licence acts as your medical certificate and you do NOT need a separate med cert to get that country's day licence.

2. under the same scenario, if the event is NOT permitted by the country federation, then your BTF race licence is not valid and you should purchase whatever day licence the race organiser is offering - if any at all. so check!! (by the way, the same goes for UK events not under a BTF permit)

3. for Ironman events, if the event in another European country is being run under that country's federation permit and race rules, then your BTF race licence is valid as per point 1.

2. as per point 3, if the IM event is run without that country's federation permit, then your BTF licence is NOT valid and you should purchase the relevant day licence - and you should also check if the event is being run under Ironman rules which differ to country federation rules.

finally - not all European federations run the same rulebook and there can be some significant differences - the race briefings should advise you of these, and if in doubt, check with the organiser. these can be quite simple things and one I always use as an illustration is the French federation (FFTri) insist on race belts having 3 number attachments, not 2 as is usual in the UK - and the race referees (Arbiteurs) will pick you up on this! a UK belt can easily be adapted by adding a safety pin in the middle.

as the BTF now uses the ITU rulebook (with a few minor UK specific variations) anyone racing an event under BTF rules, should be able to easily adapt if stepping up to racing under ITU rules (usually GB age group events).
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Last edited by fat buddha on Mon May 15, 2017 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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awildt




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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupendously well summarised fb.

I'm sure your next question is why do you need a med cert. in France? Insurance basically. As per a previous comment, there's no free NHS in France so you'll get a bill of varying severity dependent on your income if you end up in hospital. So everyone requires a medical certificate stating "in competition" to allow you to participate in any "race" in France. As with all medical affairs in France, it places the responsibility of health and wellness in the hands of the person, not their GP.

Every year in September I went to my GP (paid him as you do for every consultation) and got my medical certificate that stated I could do "triathlons in competition" and paid my license fee and it covered me for triathlons, swimming, cycling and running. It was by far the most practical license to have in France. And it included personal accident insurance.

The license and club fee might have cost 115Euros for the year but then I never paid more than 40Euros for an entry fee. Most likely fee was 20Euros for a sprint and 30Euros for a standard distance. Long distance varied greatly dependent on the organiser.

Considering how much pool and track time I got for that license and club fee, and then how cheap my race entries were, no wonder I've not done a tri for over 2 years in this country.
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