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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even a very moderate and carefully crafted poll for C4 (reported in the Guardian Apr 16) highlighted, for example and I could have chosen others, that 52% of UK Muslims polled claimed that homosexuality should be illegal*. How that compares to UK Christians or other denominations, I know not, but i would hazard a guess that Christianity has had much of its bias beaten out of it over the years (WW1 pretty much killed off christendom as well as what remained of the Ottoman empire and WW2 saw off much of the Catholic far right).

We therefore pretty much have a choice. We can either discuss these ideas openly and thus they become exposed to the ridicule they deserve and society moves on and grows or we can continue to fear upsetting people and will always have to face these fundamental differences.

Free speech is too important to give up lightly...and if you can't tackle the day to day stuff, you've got no chance on the life and death.

*I chose this example over sharia or sympathy for suicide bombers or the oppression of women simply because of the overwhelming, but as yet incomplete, progress made in recent years in the UK
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can talk about it and criticise Islam all you like, it won't make a jot of difference.

The underlying problem to be fixed is psychological and sociological, the fact that Islam is associated in this case is interesting, useful to some extent, but not causal.
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FatPom




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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
You can talk about it and criticise Islam all you like, it won't make a jot of difference.

The underlying problem to be fixed is psychological and sociological, the fact that Islam is associated in this case is interesting, useful to some extent, but not causal.


That's the point. Criticising it or kowtowing to it seems to make stuff all difference. Sad

There is nothing interesting about obliterating kids, nothing.
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
You can talk about it and criticise Islam all you like, it won't make a jot of difference.

The underlying problem to be fixed is psychological and sociological, the fact that Islam is associated in this case is interesting, useful to some extent, but not causal.


I really wanted not to get involved in this debate, but this is utter nonsense, sorry.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
You can talk about it and criticise Islam all you like, it won't make a jot of difference.

The underlying problem to be fixed is psychological and sociological, the fact that Islam is associated in this case is interesting, useful to some extent, but not causal.


discounting this case, because the facts simply aren't known, indeed it is psychological and sociological which is why the causes of that need to be challenged...

in a sense, it is no different than breaking the hold of christianity...nothing was freely given away, it had to be exposed for its foolishness before it lost its power...the same is required here...

As a generality, what concerns me more about your stance, however TP, is the assertion that islam was not causal. Are you an authority on this? Is this wishful thinking? Or do you simply hold double standards?
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

in a sense, it is no different than breaking the hold of christianity...nothing was freely given away, it had to be exposed for its foolishness before it lost its power...the same is required here...
that is some bold statement.

Neither Christianity nor Islam are foolish. Some people in those religions may do foolish things in its name, but the religions themselves provide guidance, support and inspiration to a couple of billion people on this planet. Those positives are hardly foolish.

And when you are talking about religions, whether these, others, new or old age, people do genuinely believe that they are doing what God has instructed. Now you may not believe in God, their God, think Aliens are Gods as in Stargate, etc, but the key point to them is that they are doing what they believe God wants them to do. Clearly whether that is factually true or not is a different matter, given that everyone and anyone says "God spoke to me/told me etc."

In some ways it is a pity that the fabled "Messiah" wasn't recognised at the Millennium, given that most religions are waiting him, for we could have been through much of these problems by now. But hey ho.

Ejc, my point, religion is not foolish, it is a comfort, an inspiration, a source of meaning, to many. And I am not that religious, but I do recognise that. Religion isn't foolish. It's just been a while since God spoke to most religions, so they are doing their best.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we lived through two world wars, the cold war and IRA terror last century, I guess we'll live through this phase. Really, my point is that rounding on the entire muslim community isn't going to help fight terror. This won't be solved in our lifetime, or that of our grandchildren; how many centuries did it take christian nations to get to their current stage of 'enlightenment'?
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explorer....what makes you say we can't discuss them ?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
Explorer....what makes you say we can't discuss them ?


i am up for the debate, limited to my experiences and knowledge of course, but you engage in such generally at your peril...plenty of examples out there if you care to look..
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does anything that gives comfort, meaning and inspiration count?

the oppression of women is foolish...i don't care whether people get their rocks off on it or think that it is the sole purpose of their life or whatever other excuse they provide....
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
does anything that gives comfort, meaning and inspiration count?
those tend to be positive good things.

Quote:
the oppression of women is foolish.....
i agree.

I have myself stood up to a committee chairman who verbally bullied a woman in committee, and boy did I pay a price for that when the opportunity arose. Funnily enough it was women who came to my rescue once revenge has been got.

Totally different scale I give you, but I mention it to show that I do stand up when necessary. The oppression of women is indeed in my opinion foolish. However that does not make Islam foolish for reasons explained above.
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norman Tebbit came up with the cricket test a good few years ago as a pretty peaceful but accurate indicator of who was a 'wrong un'. That test should be upscaled a bit by advertising and selling bacon-scented Koran toilet paper. Anyone who raises an objection is a pretty safe bet for deportation to their own idyllic land where they can make up and live by their own rules on observance of religion. We need whoever the Islamic equivalent of Dave Allen is on prime-time TV for a few years without fear of recrimination,to take the edge of their sensibilities in the same way that he did for some of our more staid elders.
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