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Power meters and racing Ironman
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Tin pot wrote:


I tried having HR with me on sprints and olympics, it was so high the entire time pointless,


Quite, but your thread is about Ironman. The only thing most of us race in an Ironman is the clock.

My point is that whilst PMs are all the rage now, what your engine is doing can still be useful info, even on the bike Smile Even if you can run the whole marathon, how you feel coming out of T2 bears little resemblance to how you feel at mile 10, let alone 20. Hence why a HRM is just as useful as a GPS.

Another useful thing is common sense. If you don't feel like eating on the bike, then you're probably going too hard. This is especially relevant if you're on target watts, but however, you're working harder because it's hot (again see HR).


Fair enough, I can check my Hr easily. I don't monitor it religiously but usually only 145-150 on the turbo, only higher than 160 for Vo2max intervals or FTP testing.

Nutrition is a whole other thing, but that's an interesting point I've not heard before. I switched from eating a lot, to eating hardly at all this year after the warnings on here. I assumed that meant I was trying less hard, not too hard?


What is your HR on your long rides?
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JeffB




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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't bother with a bike Garmin for my IM's, I just set my 920 to beep when I hit say 240W, that way I know I'll ease down if because annoys me.

This keeps things in check for the first 60 minutes or so and after that I'm usually settled between 200-220W which is what I aim for.

If it is a lumpy course I'll still try and avoid going over the 240W for long, and try and spin. It's a bit harder on some UK courses where hills tend to be fairly short and steep though.

Jeff
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crumpy




Joined: 02 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming you want to run the mara and deliver the best performance you are capable of, the bike leg is reasonably slow paced. You will still be able to talk easily throughout. You will undoubtedly get tired at some point and this is time to question whether you have taken on enough energy and probably come to the conclusion you have not so time to get some more on board !

As for power, in order to be keep a reasonably slow pace, check the power at certain points. Likely to find you are pushing the hills too much and sometimes on the flats. Also likely to find you are being a light weight on the descents and rollers. Adjust accordingly and tell yourself off for thinking you are Froomey on the ascent.

The chart you provided looks to be a decent guide. It is probably is on the cautious side. I would add 2% on and go hunt your PB. And then when the going gets tough on the run with 20k to go, like it always does, remember you and you only are responsible for keeping those legs ticking over.

Have a great race.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a lot of my concern is the change from turbo (simple consistent output blocks) to racing which varies all the fricking time. I though the Exmoor course was unusual, but looking at BestBikeSplit their plan for me and Bolton has me changing power output every few minutes, sometimes for less than a minute.

That's a nightmare when you're trying to settle in for the longhaul.


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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took it up Downe Rd/Church Hill a few days ago as a final test, which reaches up to 25% gradient.

Using the 3s Power was better overall, I could keep it down below 200W until about 10% gradient then it was silly so finished off around 320-330W.

The phone app doesn't show much detail, this was an incredibly easy ride with a buddy, just effort on the hill around 25-30mins.


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crumpy




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Took it up Downe Rd/Church Hill a few days ago as a final test, which reaches up to 25% gradient.

Using the 3s Power was better overall, I could keep it down below 200W until about 10% gradient then it was silly so finished off around 320-330W.

The phone app doesn't show much detail, this was an incredibly easy ride with a buddy, just effort on the hill around 25-30mins.



A power meter captures (even on 3s) moments of high exertion. Just because you have variability in power, it does not mean you have higher intensity.

Anyway, more importantly for Sunday, keep to your IM power plan as much as possible, hold back on the hills and you will do yourself justice.

You have done the hard training yards. Go race and have fun with a smile on your face, aka Chrissiesmiles : )
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:

Try using something golden cheetah. Plug all your outdoor rides into that and it will give you an estimated FTP from its power model.


Can I get a few tips on using GoldenCheetah?

I've downloaded it and created a new athlete, I've never heard of most of the values it asks for, but I put in my FTP and other values. I've loaded in my file from IMUK and now trying to make sense of it.

I notice it's saying an average of 136W instead of the device displayed 159W, which would explain a few things.

20 minutes over Threshold can't have helped either.


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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totals

Duration: 7:30:07
Time Moving: 7:28:33
Distance (km): 180.747
Work (kJ): 3661
W' Work (kJ): 79
Elevation Gain (meters): 1758
Averages

Speed (kph): 24.2
Power (watts): 136
Cadence (rpm): 74
Athlete Weight (kg): 84.00
Temp (C): 11.6
Maximums

Speed (kph): 68.6
Power (watts): 731
Cadence (rpm): 126
W' Expended (%): 40
Temp (C): 17.0
Metrics

CTL: 8
ATL: 46
TSB: 0
RR: 8
TriScore: 324
xPower (watts): 152
Relative Intensity: 0.657
TRIMP Points: 0
Model

W': N/A kJ
N/A J/kg
CP: N/A watts
N/A w/kg
P-max: N/A watts
N/A w/kg

Power Zones

Critical Power (watts): 231
Zone Description Low (watts) High (watts) Time %
Z1 Active Recovery 0 127 2:41:09 36
Z2 Endurance 127 173 2:35:55 35
Z3 Tempo 173 207 1:17:08 17
Z4 Threshold 207 242 33:02 7
Z5 VO2Max 242 277 11:56 3
Z6 Anaerobic 277 346 06:54 2
Z7 Neuromuscular 346 MAX 02:33 1
W'bal Zones

W' (Joules): 20000
Zone Description High (J) Low (J) Work (kJ) Time % Above CP Time %
W1 Recovered 20000 15000 3462.9 7:11:17 96 24:44 6
W2 Moderate Fatigue 15000 10000 186.8 18:50 4 03:15 17
W3 Heavy Fatigue 10000 5000 0.0 0 0 0 0
W4 Severe Fatigue 5000 MIN 0.0 0 0 0 0
Intervals

Interval Name Duration Distance (km) Work (kJ) Average Power (watts) Average Cadence (rpm) Average Speed (kph)
Entire Activity 7:30:07 180.747 3661 136 74 24.2
L7 SPRINT of 7 secs (629 watts) 7 0.043 4 630 85 22.0
Climb 1 18:59 3.737 213 187 68 11.8
Climb 2 22:18 3.731 203 152 59 10.0
Climb 3 25:18 6.115 183 128 64 15.4
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Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of the difference between your device and GC, does your device exclude zeros from power averages? That could be the reason it comes out with a higher average. General convention is that you should include zeros to assess the real physiological "cost".

In terms of the numbers, everything is relatively self explanatory. xPower is the GC version of Normalised Power, but NP is a Training Peaks copyright metric.
See: https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/FAQ-METRICS

W' relates to anaerobic work. It's effectively the formal version of "burning matches". Google it, but this article gives a rough overview: http://tailwind-coaching.com/2015/03/24/w-prime-power-effective-workouts/

The main thing GC gives you is the model computed FTP. For that, you need a whole chunk of data files. That's why values are showing as N/A in the column top right. Put in a whole host of data, and then you can go to your overall power curve and see what the model predicts as your CP or FTP.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Totals

Duration: 7:30:07
Time Moving: 7:28:33
Distance (km): 180.747
Work (kJ): 3661
W' Work (kJ): 79
Elevation Gain (meters): 1758
Averages

Speed (kph): 24.2
Power (watts): 136
Cadence (rpm): 74
Athlete Weight (kg): 84.00
Temp (C): 11.6
Maximums

Speed (kph): 68.6
Power (watts): 731
Cadence (rpm): 126
W' Expended (%): 40
Temp (C): 17.0
Metrics

CTL: 8
ATL: 46
TSB: 0
RR: 8
TriScore: 324
xPower (watts): 152
Relative Intensity: 0.657
TRIMP Points: 0
Model

W': N/A kJ
N/A J/kg
CP: N/A watts
N/A w/kg
P-max: N/A watts
N/A w/kg

Power Zones

Critical Power (watts): 231
Zone Description Low (watts) High (watts) Time %
Z1 Active Recovery 0 127 2:41:09 36
Z2 Endurance 127 173 2:35:55 35
Z3 Tempo 173 207 1:17:08 17
Z4 Threshold 207 242 33:02 7
Z5 VO2Max 242 277 11:56 3
Z6 Anaerobic 277 346 06:54 2
Z7 Neuromuscular 346 MAX 02:33 1
W'bal Zones

W' (Joules): 20000
Zone Description High (J) Low (J) Work (kJ) Time % Above CP Time %
W1 Recovered 20000 15000 3462.9 7:11:17 96 24:44 6
W2 Moderate Fatigue 15000 10000 186.8 18:50 4 03:15 17
W3 Heavy Fatigue 10000 5000 0.0 0 0 0 0
W4 Severe Fatigue 5000 MIN 0.0 0 0 0 0
Intervals

Interval Name Duration Distance (km) Work (kJ) Average Power (watts) Average Cadence (rpm) Average Speed (kph)
Entire Activity 7:30:07 180.747 3661 136 74 24.2
L7 SPRINT of 7 secs (629 watts) 7 0.043 4 630 85 22.0
Climb 1 18:59 3.737 213 187 68 11.8
Climb 2 22:18 3.731 203 152 59 10.0
Climb 3 25:18 6.115 183 128 64 15.4


Having seen all your replies on here about cheetah, best bike split, etc etc. and all your numbers and questions I would suggest that you need some Brett Sutton advice.

Concentrate on the meat and potatoes, not the fluff.

You are tying yourself up in data knots. Pick a couple of simple parameters and stick to them.
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PCP




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great advice. Maybe you need to spend the rest of the summer just riding your bike. Hit the turbo hard, have some long easy rides and maybe hit the hills if you can.

Go back and test in September/October and set a plan for over winter then start looking at numbers but for now - just ride your bike for fun.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, I'm off IM for the foreseeable but I'd like to see what the power file can tell me that I can learn from.

I'm probably doing ride london in a couple of weeks though, otherwise it's easy street.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Sure, I'm off IM for the foreseeable but I'd like to see what the power file can tell me that I can learn from.

Which I can understand, but you are still not doing what I suggested and what you quoted above:
stenard wrote:
Try using something like golden cheetah. Plug all your outdoor rides into that and it will give you an estimated FTP from its power model.

Do this. Put all your outdoor ride data into GC and see what the model predicts as your FTP and CP. That could be very illuminating as to whether the AP/NP you rode at was under or over cooking.

A standalone power file with minimal context can tell you very little.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
Sure, I'm off IM for the foreseeable but I'd like to see what the power file can tell me that I can learn from.

Which I can understand, but you are still not doing what I suggested and what you quoted above:
stenard wrote:
Try using something like golden cheetah. Plug all your outdoor rides into that and it will give you an estimated FTP from its power model.

Do this. Put all your outdoor ride data into GC and see what the model predicts as your FTP and CP. That could be very illuminating as to whether the AP/NP you rode at was under or over cooking.

A standalone power file with minimal context can tell you very little.


I only have a couple, as all my training has been on the turbo. Do you know anything about what values like W' should be set to? It's defaulted to 20000. Or does it automatically figure out all the athlete values when it has enough data?
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I've uploaded a few more files, most don't have power data or are run files. I've got a trainer road export in there, my TT in May and the IMUK leg that have power data.

The Model now says:
W': 11.3 kJ
134 J/kg
CP: 254 watts
3.02 w/kg
P-max: 732 watts
8.49 w/kg

And Metrics:

CTL: 11
ATL: 49
TSB: 0
RR: 7
TriScore: 324
xPower (watts): 152
Relative Intensity: 0.657

TRIMP Points: 0

Although the Power Zones still says Critical Power (watts): 231, perhaps I need to find a way to update that.

So if it thinks my CP/FTP is 254 and my xPower/NP for the ride was 152, then overall I undercooked the ride at about a 0.6IF.

However, looking at my power zones, I spent 52mins in total between 207W and 346W, plus two and a half minutes maxing out at 732W, then my overall low average may well be from overcooking it in these periods...right?
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Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
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