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Measuring Fitness and Training Stress
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Fuzzy Dunlop




Joined: 14 Jul 2008
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Location: In my kitchen making a secret sauce...

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just resurrecting this useful thread as I had time to look over my numbers this weekend.

My main query to others is whether you add any TSS values for swimming into the mix.

I haven't done so until just now (partly because I was swimming once a week over winter and spring and partly as I'm a little bit lazy and haven't bothered to put in manual entries).

However, I've whacked in my 4 swims from last week (being three hours all at threshold pace or a tad below) and my yellow TSB line has zonked downwards by nearly 20 points. Obvious I guess but its made me decide to be more vigilant about entering them.
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Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not yet, but now I've got a Finis Swimsense I'm going to start building a swim PMC. I rarely look at the overall PMC now, but track each sport individually; not perfect, but then the overall PMC doesn't give a true picture of how the 3 sports interact anyway.

If you started adding the TSS for swimming from a starting point of 0 - it will bring TSB down massively as any session will create a very high ATL relative to CTL at first.
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Fuzzy Dunlop




Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 3098
Location: In my kitchen making a secret sauce...

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Russ

I'd be interested to here more on the finis watch after you've had a good play with it. I was browsing that the other day.

Yes re the massive, and incorrect, drop. I haven't been keep records of swims though so will have to manually input ones I can recall/work out over past couple of months. Will make a bit more sense in the weeks ive Swam and biked post london marathon. Before then it's an easy one a week. That should allow for a more accurate picture to date I think about general stress etc.

Yes, I think sport specific is best to consider your form in that sport. I like complete though, particularly now I have a method for swim calcs, as it will help me keep things in check - useful for me as I have a general idea of what i want to do each week but actually go a lot on how I feel on a particular day. Which could easily add up to +/- 300 TSS over a week.
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trig




Joined: 03 Nov 2009
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Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a recent article about this on TP http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2011/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-swim-tss.html

I've always recorded TRIMP scores (in SportTracks) for swimming. I usually just go with a standard 1:1 ratio, unless the set is particularly hard or easy. I.e. 60 minute swim equates to a TRIMP of 60. I think it makes sense to record it as (for me anyway) swimming definitely contributes to overall fatigue.
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Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzzy Dunlop - I train a lot by how I feel so get that kid of variance at times. Though typically I'm focussed on one sport at any given time and just do a handful of solid sessions in the others.

I don't rule out the use of the overall PMC, but rather find that the way it combines the sports equally only says so much. It does give a good sense of the amount of work you're doing overall, but I find it hard to judge performance from it. You need those separate charts to see if you're recovered well or too fatigued in a particular sport. Otherwise details get masked.

Swimming does contribute to fatigue - though I find the influence different to the way hard running affects cycling for example.

So far I've been impressed with the Swimsense and its potential for analysing swim sessions and also for tracking the work you're doing in the pool. I just need to swim more to build a useful body of data up. With run injuries and a general lack of enthusiasm for swimming I've mostly been a cyclist of late.
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HealthMan




Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Hertfordshire

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great piece of work. Very informative. Thanks very much

Though the piece does mention methods for estimation. Please remember that HR on average has an error of around 10%. So use it as a guide.

It might also be worth checking out the following paper for those interested in resistance exercise for strength / power gains.

Bird et al., 2005. Designing Resistance Training Programmes to Enhance
Muscular Fitness A Review of the Acute Programme. Sports Med 35 (10): 841-851.

http://physiqueconsultant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Designing-Resistance-Training-Programmes-to-Enhance-Muscular-Fitness-A-Review-of-the-Acute-Programme-Variables.pdf
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ed_m




Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 8069
Location: coventry

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A worthy bump Smile

Wondering how things have moved or experiences on since this thread passed me by!

Since I'm now effectively self coached I'm trying to put together a plan for next year's A race. I'm familiar with power training and although i'm now spammed up on TSS/CTL/ATL/TSB using it for planning/monitoring is new to me.

I appreciate the absolute values of average TSS etc will be very individual and I'm going to have to feel my way into it over the first month or so and adapt the plan accordingly.
I've got myself a spreadsheet going and really just want a sanity check on the calculations & progression of the values.

I don't especially want to have the discussion out in the open (yet) as there may well be some rookie errors in it, anyone willing to cast an experienced eye over the plan & graphs ?

E.
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midsfella




Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cracking breadown of this model, described pefectly, Thank You
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RichA




Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Posts: 536
Location: Horsley, Surrey

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My XC MTB race partner spends most of the winter in the Alps as a part-time snowboard instructor. Therefore most of his cycle training is done on the turbo.

Main question is about the best way of recording hours/days snowboarding on the Performance Manager Chart? It is probably having v.little positive benefit on his cycling, but it is tiring (fatigue).

The same for running - should twice weekly runs be added to the performance manager chart?

[Currently use Performance Manager in Golden Cheetah or Excel]
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justinleuis




Joined: 25 Aug 2017
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Informative thread for me, great thanks for sharing about measuring fitness and training stress.
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