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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2601

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
Remember that Just because the odds are in favour of their being other life, it doesn't mean there is.

We really could be a complete one off. As we are still dealing with probability its important to acknowledge there is a remote chance this is it. and a slightly less remote chance that we are at or near the pinnacle.

It is also even more likely still that the vast distances involved in us communicating with other life are just too great. Things are quite far apart on the interstellar scale.

It's highly unlikely something like Seti could pick up any radio signals that were not indented as a focused attempt at contacting us, we can't just tune into their radios stations. If their is life but It's not on the few very near systems the chances are we could just completely miss each other.

Our own radio signals have only reached a few systems within 110 light years of us and would be completely undetectable with our level of technology.

Are we alone, probably not, but saying that is along way from assuming we "should" have made contact.
Indeed.

I just find it fascinating that so many think it impossible when there is actually a lot of circumstantial ‘evidence’ on Earth, including;-

1. The writings of several religions. Came from the skies in craft and took our women etc.
2. Globally many tribal and societal legends and lore stating precisely this, eg one of many, Native American lore about brothers from the sky coming to visit.
3. The extensive personal accounts of pilots, astronauts, policemen, claimed abductees etc, many (hundreds iirc)with psychiatric confirmation that they are not ill.

And let’s face it any actual physical evidence is going to have been quickly spirited away into some militaries black projects. Presumably for technological advantage.

I just wonder if extensive funding was made available to the scientific world, and the career ending aspects eroded, would the witness testimonies of thousands of otherwise reliable professionals (coppers, pilots retired generals etc) be taken more seriously?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
Remember that Just because the odds are in favour of their being other life, it doesn't mean there is.

We really could be a complete one off. As we are still dealing with probability its important to acknowledge there is a remote chance this is it. and a slightly less remote chance that we are at or near the pinnacle.

It is also even more likely still that the vast distances involved in us communicating with other life are just too great. Things are quite far apart on the interstellar scale.

It's highly unlikely something like Seti could pick up any radio signals that were not indented as a focused attempt at contacting us, we can't just tune into their radios stations. If their is life but It's not on the few very near systems the chances are we could just completely miss each other.

Our own radio signals have only reached a few systems within 110 light years of us and would be completely undetectable with our level of technology.

Are we alone, probably not, but saying that is along way from assuming we "should" have made contact.


i think that the odds are almost certainly stacked in favour...it is, after all, only chemistry turned to biology...how often it happens is really the question...

next, of course, is how far it develops; it may never survive the introduction of its own equivalent of Marxism, let alone Neo-marxism...

the chances of ever communicating? unlikely, i'd guess. the distances, relative rarity and lack of a common method although binary may work...

the chances of 'shooting down' a ufo....that one may assume has the technology to travel billions of miles...with what, exactly?


Time for a big glass of red, i think...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside you do know that there are at least two non fiction books for children on the subject of aliens? I even found one once in a public library. I think that I referred to it in my book, “Our Place in the Twenty First Century”.

So perhaps the biggest problem to ‘disclosure’ is governments cacking themselves over how to explain that they have lied to the people for generations, as Maggie Thatcher is so famously quoted, “You Can’t Tell The People”.


The solution for America is simple.....

Donald Trump stands up and says, “Look WW2 had just ended, we nuked Japan, as these ufos kept hassling our nuke base......and the Cold War was just starting, and you know those Ruskies, so we had to shoot first to protect ourselves....”


I think most people would respect that explanation, after all if you have just nuked a nation and brought peace to the world, with the Cold War opening up and these things penetrating your nuclear base, then given the circumstances of the time, shoot emm may have been, from an American perspective, a reasonable response, given where we were back then.

And then Trump could continue,...”now let’s do a deal..” and trade could take on a new dimension.
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Last edited by SloggingScotsman on Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:


the chances of 'shooting down' a ufo....that one may assume has the technology to travel billions of miles...with what, exactly?


...
According two pilots from two nations, one middle eastern and one South American, who have written about their dogfights, and been verified by a respected journalist (Leslie Keen in her book on ufos, which is worth reading).....with old mechanical guns. Newer human technology just doesn’t touch them as it goes off line. But good old fashioned canons keep firing.
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My tuppence worth.

It has taken humanity to go from living in mud huts and eating bugs (metaphorically speaking) to splitting the atom and creating photo-realistic virtual worlds we can explore infinitely in a matter of a few hundred years.

It took us 30? 40 years? (I forget precisely) to go from 'pong' to photo-realistic 3D virtual worlds. Technical advancement is becoming exponential. Fast forward that....hundred years, thousand years, million years?

Now look at astronomical time-scales - billions of years.

Firstly, what are the chances of two civilisations in this universe coinciding roughly at the same stage of development so they're able to not just communicate but even RECOGNISE each other as fellow life? That's rare beyond belief as you scale up.

Conversely the scale of the universe implies (probability argument again) that they 'probably' do exist somewhere.

But, more importantly as I have grown older and pondered such things, I now wholeheartedly prescribe to the matrix theory as the most likely scenario.

The 'probability' is that at least one civilisation is literally millions of years ahead of us technically. We've gone from 'pong' to realistic 3d worlds in a few years. What on earth would 10 million years forward be able to create? It's therefore perfectly feasible that our brains if they 'exist' as such, are hardwired into some 'world' quite possibly controlled by an advanced species and our consciousness exists in a reality we are probably not able to understand other than what we experience around us - the world you and I know.

It is, by definition, as unimaginable to us what 'reality' is as the internet would be to an ant.

I have a headache now - it was probably a 'glitch' in the matrix.

Goodnight.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that we are being played on the hard drive of some other, more advanced, beings is, of course, a possibility...
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ed_m




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very gad I've had a few before returning to this thread.

I very much enjoy the waitbutwhy discussion on Fermi...
which rather precludes the dark forest thing (new to me) since it assumes a certain amount of enlightenment to get to that level.

*hic*
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah the Matrix theory Gus!

That is a valuable and useful paradigm or construct to help explain things, whether it is true or not. A framework if you like, to aid understanding. It works for you, and many others.

For those still wondering how viewing works, it’s a bit like ‘reading the lines of code’ but more following the lines, or as I would say energy threads.

Re the dark forest theory, well until yesterday that was new to me but with a sleep I woke up to thinking:-

1. That’s human logic and we still can’t get on with each other.
2. What we do know about visitors, if that is what they are, is that they are not going to zap us with ray guns (as they haven’t done so, though may well according to books have switched our nukes off many times).
3. But that is not to say that they don’t tag and track us just like we do with alligators and birds etc, which could be an explanation for the abduction accounts.
4. But then the human race would have to accept that it is isn’t the pinnacle of evolution, and nations might feel helplessly out of control to protect their citizens.
5. Which brings me back to the Star Treck First Directive, and perhaps they are simply monitoring us waiting for us to become mature adults worthy of contact and trade etc.
6. Imagine for a moment that you are an alien in a spacecraft wanting to visit earth, if you wanted to ask permission to land, who would you ask? Governments who control small territories? religions whose followers span the globe? Who?
7. Now imagine if biblical and global cross cultural accounts are indeed true and we are nowadays simply half breeds and genetically engineered experiments. If the human race doesn’t evolve soon Enlil may decide to do what he has done before and eliminate the species and create a new one Homo Scentillian? (currently watching Netflix Sense8) possibly?

While I have no evidence to support this view, once nations work together better and we view ourselves as, in my case, Scotsman, Brit, European, Earthling, then whole new reams of trade will open up.

The corporate world is probably ready for substantial new trade opportunities, but I rather doubt governments are. Sadly. But that is human nature.

The only hope is that every government of every nation will be aware of its own cultural legends of visitors, so perhaps one day wisdom will prevail and we can work together to achieve more for mutual benefit.

1. Vast new trade opportunities.
2. Holidays!
3. New medicines.
4. Possible eradication of some of our environmental problems through new technologies.
Etc

No power that be needs to lose their power, just find ways of working together for the common good, while meeting the minimum standards of acceptance, whatever they are, of our visiting friends, if any.

Would make a good novel. My book “Our Place in the Twenty First Century” that I spent the first decade of this century writing may be a good starting point, even if the science is now way out of date. But I would say that, obviously.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know what increased trade leads to....

We also know what watching too much tv leads to....
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