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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
JaRok2300 wrote:
I think there is a difference between skill based sports and those that are primarily fitness related. (Over simplification I know)

Footballers get pinged on a fairly regular basis but it tends to be recreational drugs or "the wife's diet pills" if they're carrying a bit of excess weight after the summer.

I don't think the use of PEDs is that widespread as running around the pitch like a headless chicken would only get you so far if you can't read the game or do anything with the ball when you get it.

I'm sure there are those using them, it would be na´ve not to think that, but not to the extent of athletics, cycling where the benefits are more directly measurable and impactful.


the fitter you are, the more focus you can apply to the game...


There used to be large numbers of "undisclosed" failures reported on the UKAD site which stank of cover ups. When that player gets injured for 3-6 months you have to ask "What really happened" . I think its naive to think with so much money in the sport that they arent on the gear
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
JaRok2300 wrote:
I think there is a difference between skill based sports and those that are primarily fitness related. (Over simplification I know)

Footballers get pinged on a fairly regular basis but it tends to be recreational drugs or "the wife's diet pills" if they're carrying a bit of excess weight after the summer.

I don't think the use of PEDs is that widespread as running around the pitch like a headless chicken would only get you so far if you can't read the game or do anything with the ball when you get it.

I'm sure there are those using them, it would be na´ve not to think that, but not to the extent of athletics, cycling where the benefits are more directly measurable and impactful.


the fitter you are, the more focus you can apply to the game...


There used to be large numbers of "undisclosed" failures reported on the UKAD site which stank of cover ups. When that player gets injured for 3-6 months you have to ask "What really happened" . I think its naive to think with so much money in the sport that they arent on the gear


that's the west ham excuse when they have signed so many donkeys....
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PhilleusPhogg




Joined: 11 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
JaRok2300 wrote:
I think there is a difference between skill based sports and those that are primarily fitness related. (Over simplification I know)

Footballers get pinged on a fairly regular basis but it tends to be recreational drugs or "the wife's diet pills" if they're carrying a bit of excess weight after the summer.

I don't think the use of PEDs is that widespread as running around the pitch like a headless chicken would only get you so far if you can't read the game or do anything with the ball when you get it.

I'm sure there are those using them, it would be na´ve not to think that, but not to the extent of athletics, cycling where the benefits are more directly measurable and impactful.


the fitter you are, the more focus you can apply to the game...


And being fit enough as a team to do a high press for 90 mins is also a difference.

I'm a Spurs fan, and there's always talk about Poch bringing in the double training sessions and working the players harder so they are the fittest team and thus able to keep pressing throughout the game.

Maybe it's legit, but I can't help wondering how one team manages to work their players harder than everyone else, and not get that many injuries depsite the increased workload. Hmmmm, what could help you train more and recover faster I wonder?

Lots of rumors doing the rounds about Lamela's hip injury being a doping cover up.

I appreciate given there's also a large degree of skill which is part of the game, it's not like it's not possible to reach the top clean (let's face it, Matt Le Tissier was brilliant and I doubt a boat load of EPO would've made much difference to his game) but as others have said, given the money involved, you'd be mad to thing it's not fairly commonplace.
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here's a 'new idea'.

Don't allow legal challenges to doping situations.

A bit draconian I know, but what happened to the days of 'my competition, my rules'.

It would make it a damn slight more clear cut. If you are caught doping you're out. Immediately. If it's false, tough #@?#, that happens sometimes and is a casualty of catching all the people intentionally doping.

Out of competition TUE's allowed (you can't deny athletes medical treatment all year.)
In competition totally clean.

Job done.

ps I know Richard Budgett and he's a level headed old school Englishman, so if anyone will do things by the book he will.
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blindcider




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What actually counts as "out of competition?"
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
So here's a 'new idea'.

Don't allow legal challenges to doping situations.

A bit draconian I know, but what happened to the days of 'my competition, my rules'.

It would make it a damn slight more clear cut. If you are caught doping you're out. Immediately. If it's false, tough #@?#, that happens sometimes and is a casualty of catching all the people intentionally doping.

Out of competition TUE's allowed (you can't deny athletes medical treatment all year.)
In competition totally clean.

Job done.

ps I know Richard Budgett and he's a level headed old school Englishman, so if anyone will do things by the book he will.


the human rights courts would play havoc with that...
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 368

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
So here's a 'new idea'.

Don't allow legal challenges to doping situations.

A bit draconian I know, but what happened to the days of 'my competition, my rules'.

It would make it a damn slight more clear cut. If you are caught doping you're out. Immediately. If it's false, tough #@?#, that happens sometimes and is a casualty of catching all the people intentionally doping.

Out of competition TUE's allowed (you can't deny athletes medical treatment all year.)
In competition totally clean.

Job done.

ps I know Richard Budgett and he's a level headed old school Englishman, so if anyone will do things by the book he will.


the human rights courts would play havoc with that...


Aside from the obvious (yes, they would) but why.

Let's assume that sport is amateur. (bear with me). If you enter an amateur competition you abide by the rules of that competition. You don't try and change them, go to court and contest them etc.
Some sport is professional, i.e. people get paid for it. Should that actually be any different? You CHOOSE to get paid to take part in a competition in which the rules are known. You don't have to take part.
Change the rules and let people walk away if they don't like it. You'd know who was clean and fair pretty quickly.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
So here's a 'new idea'.

Don't allow legal challenges to doping situations.

A bit draconian I know, but what happened to the days of 'my competition, my rules'.

It would make it a damn slight more clear cut. If you are caught doping you're out. Immediately. If it's false, tough #@?#, that happens sometimes and is a casualty of catching all the people intentionally doping.

Out of competition TUE's allowed (you can't deny athletes medical treatment all year.)
In competition totally clean.

Job done.

ps I know Richard Budgett and he's a level headed old school Englishman, so if anyone will do things by the book he will.


the human rights courts would play havoc with that...


Aside from the obvious (yes, they would) but why.

Let's assume that sport is amateur. (bear with me). If you enter an amateur competition you abide by the rules of that competition. You don't try and change them, go to court and contest them etc.
Some sport is professional, i.e. people get paid for it. Should that actually be any different? You CHOOSE to get paid to take part in a competition in which the rules are known. You don't have to take part.
Change the rules and let people walk away if they don't like it. You'd know who was clean and fair pretty quickly.


Unfortunately victimhood is alive and well in our society (see various threads on the OT page)

i am fully in favour of cleaning up sport and would happily apply appropriate sanctions to anyone who didn't play by the rules, but sadly too many people - sports people, governing bodies, tv companies, journalists, sponsors, marketing people, hangers on - all have too much to lose to ever allow fair play to catch on again...even though it is a fundamental aspect of evolution...
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't understand about the Schoeman case is that it is listed as prednisone on his doping control form for the Olympics. His doctor is declaring that he took it but we don't know if there was a TUE, with Fancy Bears saying there isn't one. The IOC and surely the ITU would know he took it, with or without a TUE, without the test. The test seems to have confirmed this and they've done nothing?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
What I don't understand about the Schoeman case is that it is listed as prednisone on his doping control form for the Olympics. His doctor is declaring that he took it but we don't know if there was a TUE, with Fancy Bears saying there isn't one. The IOC and surely the ITU would know he took it, with or without a TUE, without the test. The test seems to have confirmed this and they've done nothing?


which is where the system is breaking down.

Athletes should be allowed some privacy over their medical matters, which is fine.

However, if we going to allow this mess of a system then - athlete applies for TUE, takes medicine, documents recorded on database.

Athlete takes a drugs test and fails, all relevant documents should be immediately available - this athlete took this medicine supported by this TUE. Nothing to see there, move along please
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?

But to invert that, athletes can get a diagnosis such as hypothyroidism and therefore need medication. This medication helps them perform to a higher level than they might have done without it. Can you trust they actually have hypothyroidism? Unscrupulous coaches, doctors and athletes can arrange for a diagnosis that isn't real and there is no real medical need. We know this happens and not allowing them to compete (at elite level) whilst on the TUE would help reduce this to an extent. Don't know what happens in the case of diabetes, maybe they can't be elite level athletes?
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.
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