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moonmonkey02




Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 243
Location: somewhere eating Pot Fish

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YKK wrote:


FWIW I am not a bad runner off the bike but horriffic would be how I how describe my run at the top.


just as an aside to this thread why was this?
- bike took to much out of you?
- running at altitude?
- weather/heat?
- something else?

just interested as i'm looking at this race in a couple of years time so be handy to know a bit about the run: everyone always goes on about the bike course!
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
A 33x36 lowest gear which is cheap and easy to get at 70rpm, will get you up alpe d'huez in over 2 hours, if AdH is taking you 2 hours, will you even make the time cut off?


But then you might need a new derailleur and it all gets a bit expensive.[/quote]

Depends on the bike, but 33x36 is goable on a short cage shimano on many bikes. But in any case a derrailleur can be had for 50 quid, spend one less night in the hotel before the event...

Obviously if you really need to optimise your event, then you might want to spend a bit more on equipment.
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duckhen




Joined: 04 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Cobbie, after completing this twice it is not to be taken lightly.
At 74 kg and a reasonable W/kg FTP I see myself as an OK biker. I was on a road bike with a compact chai set standard 50/36 and 11-23. I didn't ride too hard but still felt the life drain out of me half way up Alpe D'Huez. Don't be fooled by the distance it's as tough as an Ironman bike Lanza or Wales.
For training I recommend finding the longest hill you can and ride up and down it, vary the cadence. On the turbo raise the front wheel and chug away over geared. Run off these rides to get those hamstrings tuned in to the stress. The run ain't easy undulating multi surface sweat fest.
Get tough don't shirk if you are not ready it will be an awfully long day

Good luck and I wish I was going back this year.
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
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Location: Preston

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

11-23......
11-28?

I knew two guys from Chester Tri attempted this a few years ago, a good few to be honest, they were decent if not fantastic bikers and did it on TT bikes, way before Di2.

Neither finished the race, one pulled out on the climb, the other cramped so badly on the run he abondoned his only ever race.

They had both completed full distance races previously.

I highly recommend the biggest gear possible.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 421

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
YKK wrote:


FWIW I am not a bad runner off the bike but horriffic would be how I how describe my run at the top.


just as an aside to this thread why was this?
- bike took to much out of you?
- running at altitude?
- weather/heat?
- something else?

just interested as i'm looking at this race in a couple of years time so be handy to know a bit about the run: everyone always goes on about the bike course!


I am not 'them' but I've done the race and I will put forward (strongly) that altitude is massively underestimated. The run is at big altitude. Either you are properly acclimatised (possible with the right preparation, but unlikely) or it will give you a big kick in the nuts
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Cobbie




Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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Location: Chester

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
Cobbie wrote:
gerrymc wrote:
Thanks for replies, last sunday on turbo I just did a (boring) 90 min spin at 70% with a constant 90/95 cadence, the idea was to replicate a long climb and see how that felt, last 30 were tough enough but was a good training replicator.

GerryMc

The idea that you might just pootle up is nuts - sorry to be blunt. I presume you're aware that the average gradient on AdH is over 8%?
That 90 min session should be at 65-70 rpm to replicate 8-10%


Or just get appropriate gearing...

A 33x36 lowest gear which is cheap and easy to get at 70rpm, will get you up alpe d'huez in over 2 hours, if AdH is taking you 2 hours, will you even make the time cut off?

I don't disagree, there are several ways to go at making climbs easier.
My point really was that the session quoted was not really useful - sure if GerryMc already has special gearing or is great on the hills, then maybe it was just the ticket ... but then why ask the question?

At this time of year I would be over-gearing and doing low cadence climbing to strengthen the quads & running off the bike (uphill if possible) ... like other people have suggested.
I (sadly) never got to do the AdH tri but AXTri is similar in a lot of ways and that bike course took me longer than my only flat IM bike - OK I wasn't as fit or as light but you approach these events with caution and ideally very thorough preparation IMHO Smile
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
YKK wrote:


FWIW I am not a bad runner off the bike but horriffic would be how I how describe my run at the top.


just as an aside to this thread why was this?
- bike took to much out of you?
- running at altitude?
- weather/heat?
- something else?

just interested as i'm looking at this race in a couple of years time so be handy to know a bit about the run: everyone always goes on about the bike course!


Point 1: Maybe rode the first and second hill slightly to hard. I was up with the 5th placed woman until Al D'huez. However at the bottom of AD I was still thinking to myself I will smash my peers in the run so certainly did not think I had rode to hard.

Point 2: In-appropriate gearing for me. I had a 34-26 as my lowest gear, I am ok on a bike, but would have loved a 28 at the back (which was at home).

Point 3: The sun & heat on AD was to much for me and sapped all life out of me. The other main time I have not been able to run off the bike was the very hot Outlaw year when again I had a horrific run.

Maybe I don't drink enough in the heat, I don't know.
I don't know about the altitude with respect to running, but I don't get any ill affects at the top of mountains when cycling so probably not a problem.

There were lots of people struggling on the run that year so I was not the only one, but I went around in 2:30, when I would have hoped to be nearer 1:30.

I went back to Outlaw to run it correctly the following year after my fail. At the time I expected to do the same with this race, but as I rarely Tri now I cant see it happening, which is a great shame as it is an awesome event.
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gerrymc




Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobbie wrote:
gerrymc wrote:
Thanks for replies, last sunday on turbo I just did a (boring) 90 min spin at 70% with a constant 90/95 cadence, the idea was to replicate a long climb and see how that felt, last 30 were tough enough but was a good training replicator.

GerryMc

The idea that you might just pootle up is nuts - sorry to be blunt. I presume you're aware that the average gradient on AdH is over 8%?
That 90 min session should be at 65-70 rpm to replicate 8-10%

To think that your session is relevant to AdH indicates that you're not really very knowledgeable about this kind of event - go and read up, there are plenty of reports out there on hilly triathlons and I don't recall reading about anyone spinning up anything, ever.




my thinking is/was to get fit to do the event first. I'm doing other low cadence sessions too but feel I would need to build up to a session of that duration and low cadence levels, I was still 7 months out at that stage so I'm presuming in base building still.
Was this incorrect thinking?

GerryMc

To attempt to help answer your original question ... when I was pretty cycling fit, I was probably getting close to 4W/kg (c300W FTP and 72kg). I targeted c230W on the climbs at Norseman so about 75% of FTP (steady), with the capacity to push higher on the occasional steep bit ... less important for Norseman than when cycling in the Alps.
Given that it's a half, you can probably push that envelope if you're well trained but as has been said, heat and dehydration will likely bite you if you go too hard.

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Cobbie




Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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Location: Chester

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerrymc wrote:

my thinking is/was to get fit to do the event first. I'm doing other low cadence sessions too but feel I would need to build up to a session of that duration and low cadence levels, I was still 7 months out at that stage so I'm presuming in base building still.
Was this incorrect thinking?

GerryMc

I think this is your reply ... apologies if I've copied incorrectly.

My take is that cycling is all about power and hilly cycling is all about power to weight.

Getting 'fitter' is a very vague concept. As jibberjim wrote, you can get low enough gearing to spin up anything but - I hope obviously - the lower the gearing, the slower you will go, with obvious consequences on speed & race cut-off.

If your low cadence sessions are leaving you fresh enough to do 1-2 hard, threshold development sessions a week, then fine, they will help with general conditioning and weight loss.
However, without working on threshold power development, you will never really improve your speed. It's been said many times but if you only train at long slow distance, you'll only do long distance slowly.

If I was doing AdH, I would be working hard at the moment to increase FTP.
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JamieMcP




Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bike training pre alps consisted of a lot of sweet spot training at around 65-75 rpm for an hour or so, bit of a rest and repeat.

The best analogy I head for climbing in the alps is that it's like TTing into head wind.

I didn't think the Alp it's self was all that bad, the first few KM are hard but once it levels out it's just about finding your rhythm

I need to go back and do this race.
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