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Non Draft Race - Overtaking query
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Snotty Bob




Joined: 23 Apr 2011
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Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Non Draft Race - Overtaking query Reply with quote

Is there an etiquette thing on this or is it purely tactics.
Last race I got overtaken by folk who then slowed down to slower than what I had been doing.
Now from my understanding of the rules, overtaking straight back is a bit of a no no, especially if they were then to take me again.
So, is there an etiquette thing? If someone is away to go past me, should I just let them, or is the proper tactic for me to up my pace even if only briefly, and make them work even harder for it or else back off and stair at my buns of steel?
Cheers
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never let a female overtake you. Always speed up as they get level/just in front Razz
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't let them overtake...otherwise, abide by the drafting rules
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Andy916




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's quite a lot of erratic riding like this amongst us amateurs. I always have an ear open for the rider who's having to work hard to catch/overtake, as the last thing you want is for them to relax once past you. So, make them really work before they get alongside. The properly faster rider will be upon you and past and ouut of the way, so are no bother.

On hilly events I'm particularly careful to get as clear a run downhill as possible, by working a little harder uphill beforehand if needed. I'm not kamikaze downhill, just more confident (looking further ahead) than most other riders
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Thing of the Fountains




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this "being overtaken" of which you speak ?? Very Happy Winner
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JeffB




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think quite often people will be drafting, possibly unintentionally if they aren't sure the full distance and then think they'll make the effort to go by, once they get in front they can't hold that bit extra and drop back again.

Like Andy says, if it's a good bike they'll generally just go by and leave you for dead.

Jeff
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Whisk




Joined: 09 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three possible explanations:-

1) You're picking up some drafting benefit as they go past and even if you aren't sitting on their wheel after they've passed you, you're still getting a bit of a tow. It feels like you're having to back off to maintain the distance behind them, but you're actually going faster for less effort.

2) They've been sitting behind you in your draft zone and they've pulled out to go past you, only to discover that they've been sheltering from the wind and they haven't got the power to sustain their overtaking pace.

3) They're cheating feckers who are trying to get you to work with them as a 2-up Evil or Very Mad

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's really on to speed up when rider is trying to come past you. They've probably already taken a chunk of time out of you and you're probably not going to do yourself many favours if you're going in the red repeatedly to hold off faster riders.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^


Just hold your pace, keep your rhythm and ignore what others are doing!


Obviously easier said than done but I do think that's the best advice, if you can TRY and do that you are at least part way there.

And remember to shout "DRAFTING C$%T" to anyone who is obviously drafting.



I normally find people go past far enough for me to be out of the draft before a re-overtake (while maintaining pace and rhythm) and on the odd occasion where there is a marked slow down as soon as they are in front of me, I happily re overtake straight away (while maintaining pace and rhythm) I'm not going to slow down because they have broke their neck to get in front, I'm just going to focus on... maintaining pace and rhythm...just do YOUR own thing.
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ed_m




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeh worry about your own race... easing off after being overtaken is just saving your legs for later, sure annoying if happens repeatedly but meh.

Couple of anecdotes:
- Massively drafted at cowman one year, just kept easing off and easing off and easing off until eventually was just freewheeling. Still took the sucker several seconds before he came alongside and asked if I was okay... grrr.
- Similar cowman (different year I think) overtook one guy around 5 times, every time gradually caught tucked in & upped effort for my 30seconds to swing past him. The only reason he ended up back in front was that he kept sucking up to the back of bunches coming through.... grrrr.
- Opposing issue at IM Sweden, long flat straights into the wind. Athletes fairly good & evenly spaced. Picking up subtle draft from athlete in front, think about overtaking... eventually pull out to pass, yeh, headwind now working half a notch harder than i'd like this early on. Debating whether to carry on or abort I then have a draftbuster alongside encouraging me to do one or the other Very Happy so I push on. Of course having overtaken this guy I'm now straight in the draft zone of the next guy... takes another half doze overtakes working a bit too hard to get clear. hey ho, still good race.
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fat buddha




Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check the rules out guys as there have been some changes this year

for standard/sprint events, a competitor may enter the draft zone of another competitor, but must be seen to be progressing through that zone. A maximum of 20 seconds will be allowed to pass through the zone of another competitor. The draft zone is 10m.

for middle/long, the draft zone is 12m and time allowed is 25 seconds.

but the key point is

"An overtaken competitor must drop out of the draft zone of the passing competitor by continuously making rearward progress out of the draft zone of the passing competitor. Re-passing by an overtaken competitor prior to dropping out of the draft zone will result in a drafting violation"

just sitting there trying to make your mind up whether to have a go at a re-pass or decide to drop back won't cut it if caught by a Moto TO. if taken, drop back the relevant distance.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed FB, but as ed_m references above, if you're sat at 12m to another rider, and someone comes past you and immediately tucks in, they're the one in the wrong? They either have to overtake the line, or no-one. Right?

But even if that's the rule, if there isn't a moto there to see them do what they did, the likelihood is you'll get pinged.

I had that happen in Mallorca. Holding 12m to the rider in front for a good km or more. Another rider than creeps past me and dives in at 11m to the rider in front, and then proceeds to slow. Illegal as far as I'm aware. So I had a choice. If a moto was there, he should get carded. If a moto didn't see that happen, but came up now, it'd look like I was drafting. So I just overtook him again immediately. Yes, that's illegal per what you've quoted, but what the other guy did beforehand was as well. And if there was a moto there to see me do the second act, they would have seen him commit the first act. My thinking was they'd ping him and leave me be as the victim of an offence.

As others have indicated above, I'm all for playing fair by the drafting rules and perpetual drafters annoy me no end, but if you're playing by the rules and someone else doesn't, what are you meant to do? I saw no reason why I should drop back 12m, and then separately come past him when I'd done nothing wrong in the first place.
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to race legally with drafting peletons around really did my nut in an IM Barcelona and IM Italy, to an extent that I will not be racing another big ticket European IM race until convinced they've sorted it.

I had no KQ ambitions at either race, just my own time target so the fact they were drafting was not an issue for my race goals, but it's hard as it still messes with your own attempt at a 'legal' race. Once a 'peleton' breaks the plane of your front wheel the only legal thing to do is drop immediately behind the entire pack.

Trying to get past such a pack is as bad - sometimes it's impossible without crossing the white line - a DQ offence - to get past the 3 wide group. Otherwise the only legal thing to do is get 12m ahead of the leading rider within 25 secs, of course that becomes very hard as they suddenly realise you are a wheel worth latching onto.
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fat buddha




Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Agreed FB, but as ed_m references above, if you're sat at 12m to another rider, and someone comes past you and immediately tucks in, they're the one in the wrong? They either have to overtake the line, or no-one. Right?

But even if that's the rule, if there isn't a moto there to see them do what they did, the likelihood is you'll get pinged.


yes - that's also part of the problem and unless someone comes up with technology that can help in all situations, it will never be perfect.

motos - if they are observant and watching what's going on - can help in these circumstances and make that decision on who to ping. after all a draft penalty is a "judgement call" that is made judged on what is seen by the moto (or static draftbuster but they aren't common) and the ones I work with tend to warn first but if they see regular infringement will penalise. and a drafting infringement can't be appealed which can act as a deterrent

sadly there's no easy way to manage drafting as there just aren't enough eyes out there at all times.
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tiesim




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swashbuckler was a terrible draft fest with exactly this happening, they would overtake me then slowdown. I tried to drop them only to give them a target to chase so I ended up sitting up and letting a bunch go as I didnít want to be in their gang, I was delighted to see in the results a member of the gang got a penalty and as a result lost the win!! Cheating feckers
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ed_m




Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tiesim wrote:
Swashbuckler was a terrible draft fest with exactly this happening, they would overtake me then slowdown. I tried to drop them only to give them a target to chase so I ended up sitting up and letting a bunch go as I didnít want to be in their gang, I was delighted to see in the results a member of the gang got a penalty and as a result lost the win!! Cheating feckers


Ah yes you reminded me at IM Sweden also passing a chap many times in the 2nd half of the course, every time he came past on the wheel of one or two others only to get dropped and passed again.

Was very pleased to see him in the sin bin on my way into T2.. couldn't run for toffee either Wink
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