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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1779

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

That people label themselves (or are labelled) left and right is really baffling...nearly everyone holds views on both sides with the middle deviating according to the times....currently this is moderate to far left and thus anything that isn't, is labelled extreme...

Totally agree with this. Most people fall on both sides of the fence on a range of issues. It's why the whole Brexit debate should have been much more balanced than either side made it out to be.

explorerJC wrote:
...it is becoming more clear every day that our MPs to a degree and certainly the EU are out for their own ideological and material gain.

Again, broadly agree with this.

explorerJC wrote:
I have said repeatedly that you give up democracy at your peril...

However this, alongside the above, is where I'm at a bit of a quandry. The more I think about things, the more I can't fathom a way we can have a democratic system, which also doesnt facilitate the self-serving agenda that naturally (and I don't blame them for this) creates bias in the decisions taken by elected officials.

Being an MP is the job. Inherently, decisions then get influenced by a desire to secure their own futures. A lot of the problems I see run pretty deep, and need a systematic long term strategy to try and resolve. Yet party politics, and term elections, create a short term mindset where even a majority government are only thinking a few years ahead before they then again look to point score and create a mindset where they might win again.

But what's the alternative? The opportunity for a perpetual presidential system / dictatorship?

Maybe I'm just not well read enough on global politics to be aware of other options that exist, but I just can't see a way by which we can have the democracy that I desire, yet whose elected officials actually plan ahead for the long term good of the country, rather than just short term self serving motives. Hence being at a bit of an impasse in my own mind. I have no doubt that at least the majority of politicians go into it because they want to "do good" (it's not exactly supremely well paid), but that clearly isn't enough / that mindset gets corrupted at some point along the way.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sgreg

That was supposed to be humerous, given his comment on another thread.

Blame it on the social nitwit in me. Itís what happens when you spend two decades caring for people with mental and physical problems, you literally donít get out much. In my case compounded by living with a mentally ill person as a child which was kept from me. (Hence I see mental illness as normal).

The combination of the above does affect you social skills somewhat.

Like everyone else I have my strengths and my weaknesses.

My social skills will return, and are returning. Slowly I give you.


Last edited by SloggingScotsman on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stenard

My thoughts on your last paragraph.

Power does indeed corrupt. And politicians are restricted by political timescales.

But, having people with broad ranging life experience making policy would ensure better decision making. And if supplemented by those very same people being sufficiently aware of the destructive power of ego, greed, desire for power etc and how power can and does corrupt, would go a long way.

All that would take is for political,parties to field candidates who have those skills.
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:

Maybe I'm just not well read enough on global politics to be aware of other options that exist, but I just can't see a way by which we can have the democracy that I desire, yet whose elected officials actually plan ahead for the long term good of the country, rather than just short term self serving motives. Hence being at a bit of an impasse in my own mind. I have no doubt that at least the majority of politicians go into it because they want to "do good" (it's not exactly supremely well paid), but that clearly isn't enough / that mindset gets corrupted at some point along the way.


Interestingly, the House of Lords actually worked best when it was stuffed full of hereditary peers - those who were wealthy enough frankly not to need to have their nose in the trough of vested interests. As a generalisation, when you're wealthy enough (and have been for generations) then their lawmaking tended to be fair and balanced.

Once Bliar (and his successors) changed things and started stuffing the House full of 'favours', that fundamental foundation started crumbling and the Lords ceased to be as effective (in my opinion now completely unfit for purpose).

Same goes for the Other House. I suspect in decades past most MP's genuinely did go into politics on principles and passion, rather than a career choice. These days, it appears most MP's are graduates in politics (or similar) who see the job as a career rather than a calling.

And there, I suspect, is where it's gone hopelessly wrong. Vested interests, 'snouts in the trough', who see politics as a gravy train to power, influence and therefore wealth - all those epithets are applicable to many, many MP's on all sides. Funnily enough, the Tory party is now as bad as Labour at this.

How do we change it? IMHO one option is to demand that an MP cannot enter the House until he's done (for example) 20 years in industry or doing a 'proper job' (to be defined) first in the 'real' world. Likewise, salaries should actually be increased hugely to attract genuine talent - but coming with that a draconian set of rules, rigorously enforced publicly, that dictate any wavering from expectations of the position is instant dismissal, public shame etc..

Who knows? All that everyone seems united upon is that our political system is increasingly unfit for purpose.

Sloggers, you need to write a book on it. Or something.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt disagree on that. I have always found it frustrating when tabloids have criticised certain MP's for retaining interests in jobs, such as medicine etc.

As you and SS say, life experience is surely invaluable in reaching a considered point of view. Career politicians are an issue I have as well.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus

Bingo!

You have now identified why I want that fabled half trillion pounds sterling. It would place me in a position where money is a complete non issue (and where it was, kidnapping, extortion etc I am sure there are security companies out there who could help for a good fee). It would then enable me to advance positively forwards, hopefully doing good.

But as that isnít exactly likely to happen, I have to leave it to those old money peers that have dwindled you talk about.

Then again if I had come from old money it is highly unlikely that I would have gained the life experience that now enables me to cut through complex issues the way that I do.

I also agree that peerages and gongs for purchase was a very bad idea. All you get is a specific type of group think which helps nobody really. (Except for short termist loyalty).

Ignore me I am just jealous. But I jest not on this .....I could help rebuild the Conservative Party in a decades time once it has re-Profumo like-exhausted itself, and is reflecting on how to regain power, against distasteful memories in many voters minds. As an old party member who is disgusted by the last decade, and lived on the pointy end, I do have relevant first hand life experience.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15686
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

That people label themselves (or are labelled) left and right is really baffling...nearly everyone holds views on both sides with the middle deviating according to the times....currently this is moderate to far left and thus anything that isn't, is labelled extreme...

Totally agree with this. Most people fall on both sides of the fence on a range of issues. It's why the whole Brexit debate should have been much more balanced than either side made it out to be.

explorerJC wrote:
...it is becoming more clear every day that our MPs to a degree and certainly the EU are out for their own ideological and material gain.

Again, broadly agree with this.

explorerJC wrote:
I have said repeatedly that you give up democracy at your peril...

However this, alongside the above, is where I'm at a bit of a quandry. The more I think about things, the more I can't fathom a way we can have a democratic system, which also doesnt facilitate the self-serving agenda that naturally (and I don't blame them for this) creates bias in the decisions taken by elected officials.

Being an MP is the job. Inherently, decisions then get influenced by a desire to secure their own futures. A lot of the problems I see run pretty deep, and need a systematic long term strategy to try and resolve. Yet party politics, and term elections, create a short term mindset where even a majority government are only thinking a few years ahead before they then again look to point score and create a mindset where they might win again.

But what's the alternative? The opportunity for a perpetual presidential system / dictatorship?

Maybe I'm just not well read enough on global politics to be aware of other options that exist, but I just can't see a way by which we can have the democracy that I desire, yet whose elected officials actually plan ahead for the long term good of the country, rather than just short term self serving motives. Hence being at a bit of an impasse in my own mind. I have no doubt that at least the majority of politicians go into it because they want to "do good" (it's not exactly supremely well paid), but that clearly isn't enough / that mindset gets corrupted at some point along the way.


Democracy only works if you have freedom of speech/freedom of expression.
The healthy debate this allows keeps both sides in check and ensures that positions are thought through and justified. Nominally, democracy still exists however, we are rapidly seeing the erosion of any opposing debate.

This works well for the current dominant side which is left of current centre and moderately far left of historic centre, but there lies a risk. If you close down debate, it is fine whilst all is going your way, but you deny yourself the opportunity to improve your argument/position and, more worryingly, when things go too far to the left, the removal of freedom of speech will deny you the opportunity to object.

History is replete with this on both sides...

Additionally, the systems with which the west, in the main, now operate, are incredibly fragile. They may not be perfect, but they work extremely well, in fact, they work better than anything else as yet experienced in a modern setting. At present, we are exchanging this for some utopian society which does not take account of either the many flaws in its conception and ideology or the history of failure in every other drive for an utopian society. The last two failures cost hundreds of millions of lives...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15686
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
stenard wrote:

Maybe I'm just not well read enough on global politics to be aware of other options that exist, but I just can't see a way by which we can have the democracy that I desire, yet whose elected officials actually plan ahead for the long term good of the country, rather than just short term self serving motives. Hence being at a bit of an impasse in my own mind. I have no doubt that at least the majority of politicians go into it because they want to "do good" (it's not exactly supremely well paid), but that clearly isn't enough / that mindset gets corrupted at some point along the way.


Interestingly, the House of Lords actually worked best when it was stuffed full of hereditary peers - those who were wealthy enough frankly not to need to have their nose in the trough of vested interests. As a generalisation, when you're wealthy enough (and have been for generations) then their lawmaking tended to be fair and balanced.

Once Bliar (and his successors) changed things and started stuffing the House full of 'favours', that fundamental foundation started crumbling and the Lords ceased to be as effective (in my opinion now completely unfit for purpose).

Same goes for the Other House. I suspect in decades past most MP's genuinely did go into politics on principles and passion, rather than a career choice. These days, it appears most MP's are graduates in politics (or similar) who see the job as a career rather than a calling.

And there, I suspect, is where it's gone hopelessly wrong. Vested interests, 'snouts in the trough', who see politics as a gravy train to power, influence and therefore wealth - all those epithets are applicable to many, many MP's on all sides. Funnily enough, the Tory party is now as bad as Labour at this.

How do we change it? IMHO one option is to demand that an MP cannot enter the House until he's done (for example) 20 years in industry or doing a 'proper job' (to be defined) first in the 'real' world. Likewise, salaries should actually be increased hugely to attract genuine talent - but coming with that a draconian set of rules, rigorously enforced publicly, that dictate any wavering from expectations of the position is instant dismissal, public shame etc..

Who knows? All that everyone seems united upon is that our political system is increasingly unfit for purpose.

Sloggers, you need to write a book on it. Or something.
Wink


historically, our 'leaders' studied the arts - not the new carp, but classic literature, philosophy, etc...from which they at least learnt the mistakes of the past and how to communicate effectively...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2875

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From this weekends press it looks like the big guns are now focused on a second referendum, and it is claimed that 100 Brexit constituencies (mainly labour) have changed their minds and now want to remain.

Well assuming that remaining is still doable in law, this for me is proving to be an excellent training experience in intuitive abilities. I will explain it as it may help some of you in other circumstances.

Just before the referendum, I predicted that we would vote to leave, but something would happen so that it didnít actually happen. I could explain to a spook (who would have the resources and contacts) to verify this. This was based on Ďintuitive gut feelingí.

Some months ago (on the net) I waivered. This was based on Good Judgement Project protocol, for I could see how a Brexit in name only (where we are legally out but our laws are just carbon copies of EU legislation etc) could happen for politicians to save face and claim success. Form over substance for accountants here.

As I Ďfeel and follow the energy flowí which is real difficult to explain, so think of a coppers Ďgut feelingí, it is real difficult to differentiate between no Brexit (the substance) and a Brexit in name only (merely legal form). I didnít, and still canít differentiate these two (using my intuition).

This is a valuable learning point for me. One that I donít currently have the answer to.

But I am increasingly wishing that I had more self confidence to stick to my guns and ignore the politics and manipulation for career purposes, and just focus on the substance. While I am still unsure whether it will be a Brexit in name only or whether we stay, I am increasingly feeling that it will be the latter. Perhaps an extension to article 50 will be given to allow a second referendum?

Anyhow, while I train myself from this, for perspective does anyone here, in their heart of hearts really think that we will properly Brexit? I mean a real proper in reality Brexit, not in name only where we carbon copy and apply the laws, etc.

I am curious, for it must be really hard for those of you here who are Brexiteers watching what our politicians are doing.

I know that some of you will want a proper Brexit. But that is not what I am asking. I am asking do you think that a proper Brexit that is not in name only will actually happen.


On a bigger scale this matters to me as I have similar feeling re bad stuff relating to America, and (to a lesser extent) even the potential for proper global war within a decade, and if I do turn out to have been correct re Brexit I really need to hassle our security services to listen to me. Or just publish and hope that they read, which may be simpler.

So who here still thinks that a proper in substance Brexit is going to happen?

I ask not for ego purposes, but because I am trying to gauge (Good Judgement Project protocols) what you think from your heart will happen. It will help me learn.

Thanks.
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AndyS..




Joined: 13 Jun 2006
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Location: Gotham

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean by a proper in substance Brexit? If you want to trade with them then you have to follow a lot of their rules in order for the goods to be salable in their market. You can't throw the rule book out the window in a race to the bottom.
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS.. wrote:
You can't throw the rule book out the window in a race to the bottom.


Why is it always 'a race to the bottom' when in fact its actually a race to not end up at the bottom because the EU is dragging your company into commercial suicide ?

The EU is a trading bloc designed to trade amongst its members at high prices to avoid the reality that its less and less competitive every day. Germany aside which lives off much of failing Europe, EU countries are not really very good at exporting because they are hamstrung by EU rules and regulations. EU growth rates are very poor and thats after being buoyed up by QE on a vast scale.

Its not about a race to the bottom but about staying competitive in a world market and judging by the EU growth rates relative to the rest of the world, then the EU is sliding backwards quite quickly and best not to be tied to a sinking ship - even if its a nice ship on the inside, where everyone is in a first class cabin because the cabin sinks just the same as the rest of the ship.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS.. wrote:
What do you mean by a proper in substance Brexit? If you want to trade with them then you have to follow a lot of their rules in order for the goods to be salable in their market. You can't throw the rule book out the window in a race to the bottom.
oh I agree AndyS.

What I mean by an in substance Brexit is precisely that. A Brexit, as promised by some, and wanted by many, where Britain really is in control of its own destiny. So not a Brexit where we abide by the rules, under the supervision of the ECJ (or a U.K. court that simply copies and pastes what EJC does/would be likely to do), where we do have our own trading rules (and not U.K. laws just being a carbon copy of eu laws), where we have freedom to control people movement (given that many who voted out want to vastly reduce immigration) etc.

What we seem to be getting is something really really bad for accountants, form over substance.

In triathlon terms itís a bit like me getting a IM tattoo, when in IMUK I was asked by a paramedic to withdraw from the race half way around the bike. Nonsense. It might have form (look good to save face) but absolutely meaningless and potentially ego stokingly harmful.


I ask, as this really is an important learning point for me, using community wisdom (Good Judgement project).

So AndyS, GrahamO, everyone else. Do you think that we will have an in substance Brexit? One where we really are masters of our own destiny and can control the things that those who voted to leave wanted? (Not paying in, not subject to ECJ in that or another name, ability to control immigration as we want, ability to do as we chose? (Which may be to follow eu rules but it being our genuine choice).

This matters to me as I am aware of my own biases, I am an ardent Europhile. I think this mess was simply caused by Cameronís ego and desire to manipulate and control the Conservative party. Doing right by the people I donít think came into it. But we now have a lot of upset people, on both sides. And that is an uneasy place.

Some of the extreme right wing stuff I hear on the streets of Oxfordshire is eye popping. Itís rare I give you, but it has made me pause for thought. This is Oxfordshire, can only imagine what it is like elsewhere.
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AndyS..




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to be a race to the bottom because of the talk of getting rid of 'red tape', much of that red tape is there to keep employees safe and stop employers abusing or taking excessive advantage of them. The talk of becoming a Singapore style sweat shop isn't good news for me as I'm likely to have a low paid, low skilled job (probably on a zero hours contract with no sick or holiday pay). It's not like there's a strong trade union base which can steer things, I think low skill employees are going to get properly shafted.

For me, best case scenario is to call it all off and carry on as before. Second best is to Brexit and carry on as before but we'll lose our place around the EU take and get to take whatever comes our way. Worse case (and I can't believe it's now the popular choice from Brexit people) is WTO semi-no deal type deal. IMO, whatever deal is made or not made, I see civil unrest on the horizon, especially if there's a second referendum and that says to stay in the EU.

Word on the streets of SE London is vile. A former colleague of mine, a Jewish woman, started her campaign to 'send home' all Polish people the day after the referendum. I asked her how far down the list of people to send home does she think Jewish woman are and it didn't matter to her, get rid of the Polish. I left that job shortly after that, I reported it to the business owner who did nothing so I left (on the spot as well, I just walked out).
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all a bit of a mess really, regardless of what you voted for. All the political manoeuvring & plotting on the Leave side, and those on the Remain side trying to look like they're committed to taking us of the EU cleanly, but their hearts aren't in it.

Still, it will make an interesting book and film one day.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS.. wrote:
It seems to be a race to the bottom because of the talk of getting rid of 'red tape', much of that red tape is there to keep employees safe and stop employers abusing or taking excessive advantage of them. The talk of becoming a Singapore style sweat shop isn't good news for me as I'm likely to have a low paid, low skilled job (probably on a zero hours contract with no sick or holiday pay). It's not like there's a strong trade union base which can steer things, I think low skill employees are going to get properly shafted.

For me, best case scenario is to call it all off and carry on as before. Second best is to Brexit and carry on as before but we'll lose our place around the EU take and get to take whatever comes our way. Worse case (and I can't believe it's now the popular choice from Brexit people) is WTO semi-no deal type deal. IMO, whatever deal is made or not made, I see civil unrest on the horizon, especially if there's a second referendum and that says to stay in the EU.

Word on the streets of SE London is vile. A former colleague of mine, a Jewish woman, started her campaign to 'send home' all Polish people the day after the referendum. I asked her how far down the list of people to send home does she think Jewish woman are and it didn't matter to her, get rid of the Polish. I left that job shortly after that, I reported it to the business owner who did nothing so I left (on the spot as well, I just walked out).


where is the evidence for this?
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