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The Sub 11 Ironman Thread
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1827

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
The 20 minute test is flawed in many ways, but can still serve a purpose.

The advantage of a ramp test with lactate testing is that you can call it a day once you have established the key data if you wish which makes it very efficient (and less fatiguing). It is also reliable, repeatable and valid up to a point...

I definitely don't disagree (intentional double negative).
The 20 minute test is potentially a better indicator of threshold for longer distance triathlon as it's more of a steady state endurance test.

But the other drawbacks have led me to move away from it in terms of regular testing. Moving forwards, what I may do is more regularly use the ramp test, but then once or twice a year at the point of commencing key training blocks validate those ramp test FTP outputs with a longer test protocol.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 589
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
The 20 minute test is flawed in many ways, but can still serve a purpose.

The advantage of a ramp test with lactate testing is that you can call it a day once you have established the key data if you wish which makes it very efficient (and less fatiguing). It is also reliable, repeatable and valid up to a point...

I definitely don't disagree (intentional double negative).
The 20 minute test is potentially a better indicator of threshold for longer distance triathlon as it's more of a steady state endurance test.

But the other drawbacks have led me to move away from it in terms of regular testing. Moving forwards, what I may do is more regularly use the ramp test, but then once or twice a year at the point of commencing key training blocks validate those ramp test FTP outputs with a longer test protocol.


Even though my ftp has apparently come down (although I suspect that it is not that low), I have noticed that my ability to perform on the bike at or close to my ftp for a sustained period has increased. I know for instance that a hill climbing TT, I did just over a week ago was only 5w down on my ftp, but sustained for 1h17m, a month ago I did another hill climb where my average power was 20w above yesterday's ftp for 24mins - these were both max efforts

I did my last ftp 9 months ago, off the back of a lot of shorter "hero" sessions and shorter turbo sessions aimed at building ftp, over the spring and summer, other than the odd hill climbing TT and shorter Tri, most of my sessions have been longer, and probably more in Z2 low Z3
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Tri'ing Swimmer




Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I assume lower FTP but better ability to sustain it should be expected as gain endurance and training for longer events. Especially compared to 20minute test rather than actual hour performance.

my background is events of few minutes, last season I could hold a great 20 minute test at Christmas time but found the more I rode to build to IM the worse my wattbike numbers got. Plus seemed disparity between holding numbers close to people like yourself for short sessions, but being nowhere near as good in real world. Part of that will be that youíre better cyclist technically, but must also be in part better endurance to back up FTP results.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 17616
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
13*100s as;
2*100m pull buoy warm up
9*100m in 1:30 off 1:45
1:28, 1:24, 1:28, 1:29, 1:27, 1:31, 1:32, 1:28, 1:26
2*100m pull buoy cool down


Dare I say it, I was quite impressed with this; isn't that quite an improvement? Did you do them full-stroke (no toys/aids)? However, I must temper this praise by saying that if your turns are good, you should be fast in a 20m pool - I bet you were swimming much less than 15m a length Wink
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Poet.




Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Dare I say it, I was quite impressed with this; isn't that quite an improvement? Did you do them full-stroke (no toys/aids)?


Yes, massive.
I started at about 1:45/100m, having not swam at all since the London World Champs in September 2013.

As I can only do 20-25 minutes at lunch, twice a week and one 15 minute session, I have mainly been doing drills and technique work (from 5-8 years ago, I hear it's all changed now? More a water polo stroke, anyhow...)
Add that to fitness gained from running and cycling, seems to have paid off.
Sets are from this:
http://www.triathlete.com/2016/02/training/30-minute-swim-sessions_127877

All done full stroke with no aids - always put the aids/toys/stroke on Strava, if only for my own hindsight.

And yes Very Happy
My turns are good and it's a 20m pool, the two over 1:30 I got stuck at the wall, so couldn't tumble, so easily adds on about 1s per 20m for no tumbling.

But...this gives me something to work with. I can't compare it to someone who swims in a 25m pool, but I can use it to track my progression.
From previous experience, my pool speed never translates to open water.

I live opposite the local pool, so might go do a few "proper" lengths in there one day... Twisted Evil
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1782
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mon: Rest day
Tue: Trainerroad ramp test with Carillion -5 afterwards. Tested at 275w. Baring in mind that last month or so has been relativlely unstructered and I had been ill, to effectivley maintain my ftp was encouraging.
Wed:45 min 2000m swim with CSS test. 400 / 7:09 and 200 / 3:31. Giving a CSS of 1:49/100. Again, baring in mind I've only recently got back into the pool after a long layoff, I'm in a better position than I thought that I would be.
Thur: TR turbo - Cumberland 1:15hrs
Fri: rest
Sat: TR turbo - Ericcson 1hr.
Sun: Long bike. 3:09 / 51m. Felt really carp, had nothing going uphills so took it very steady. I don't do well when I've been on the turbo the day before.

Total: 8hrs 15 - 534TSS - Pretty much bang on target. Cool

Still have quite a bit of bruising where I've injured my foot, so I doubt I will be running this week. We'll see. I've got a couple of very busy weeks at work so I'll be trying to get my turbo sessions done in the morning and get 2, preferably 3 swims done in the evening.
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Poet.




Joined: 06 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice week there, Wheezy.
Foot still bad? Iíd be pooped without running.

My Week
9*100s under 1:30 off 1:45, caveat being itís a 20m pool and my turns are good (also two lengths were held up and slightly over 1:30)
Double puncture Friday on the commute, too pissed off to swim at lunch and went to the pub after work, meaning a trip to work to Collect it on Saturday after parkrun...
...where I ran a 19:51 (or 50,52 - watch and Strava day different things) after running a 21:38 last month.
Thatís quicker than I did Stretford Parkrun in two/three years ago (19:55) which is all on tarmac and has 1,200m on a track.
Pleased as punch with that.
4h 20m / 120km ride on Sunday. Punctured. Again. About 100mins solo, rest with a group, but I was on the front for about All bar 30 minutes.
Felt great - got a invite from an A rider to move up a group - yay!
Lost another 1lb. Losing LESS than a pound a week from now until April, Iíll be back at my 2013 weight.

I really need to make an effort to swim more and a bit longer.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 991
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Managed a little under 9 hrs last week. With half-term I missed 2 swims but gained 1 turbo session. it breaks down as:
Swim - Aerobic 2750m in 55 mins (broken not a straight swim)
Bike - 4:20 in 4 rides, all on the trainer with 2 sweet spot, 2 aerobic threshold
Run - 2 outdoors 12.9km and 19.2km and what should have been an interval session at the gym cut short as my chest tightened up a lot. I was only doing it as I didn't want to run outside with bonfires and fireworks as that really irritates my airways.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Managed a little under 9 hrs last week. With half-term I missed 2 swims but gained 1 turbo session.


The main reason I'll probably never do Tenby - training consistently over the school summer holidays....no chance.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Managed a little under 9 hrs last week. With half-term I missed 2 swims but gained 1 turbo session.


The main reason I'll probably never do Tenby - training consistently over the school summer holidays....no chance.

Same here. Well not for another 8 years or so.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 1890
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0 hours last week.

Was working away Mon-Weds and I've been in bed since Thursday on antibiotics. Picked something up while working away last week.
I can breathe deeply without coughing my guts up this afternoon for the first time.

Still probably not wise to train till tomorrow or Wednesday really but I can't get stressed about it. My CTL is as low as it has ever been but not much I can do at the moment.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
0 hours last week.

Was working away Mon-Weds and I've been in bed since Thursday on antibiotics. Picked something up while working away last week.
I can breathe deeply without coughing my guts up this afternoon for the first time.

Still probably not wise to train till tomorrow or Wednesday really but I can't get stressed about it. My CTL is as low as it has ever been but not much I can do at the moment.


But just imagine how positive your TSB value will be Rolling Eyes Very Happy
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
But just imagine how positive your TSB value will be Rolling Eyes Very Happy


Legs will be freeesssssshhhhhhhh Laughing
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biking into work every day this week, so that has me up over 7h already; not loving the rain though. My weight seems to have jumped up to a 73.xkg plateau instead of the usual 72.x too.
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Biking into work every day this week, so that has me up over 7h already; not loving the rain though. My weight seems to have jumped up to a 73.xkg plateau instead of the usual 72.x too.

Water retention?
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