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aero - let's have some realistic thoughts
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1872
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My issue with my frame is more to do with its adjustability at the front end. Iíve put some after market bars on but my elbows are still relatively wide. I could probably fit some s bends on which would bring my hands up higher (currently have flat extensions). Mind you, exterior cables, visible welding, a rear wheel not very close to the seat tube all look quite in-aero. One of the new trip skin suits would probably be a better investment but Iím happy to keep tinkering with my position for now.
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Tri Tim




Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife has worked her way up from being a first time amateur racing at Dorney lake 10 years ago to racing professionally for BMC this year.

One of the single biggest differences she has ever made to her bike splits was thinking properly about aerodynamics - not so much to equipment choices (although that helps) but the way her body is positioned on the bike. It makes a massive difference if you want to be remotely competitive and was a gamechanger for her.

As an example - she raced Dublin 70.3 two years in a row - 2016 and 2017 i think. The first was as an age grouper and she averaged something like 225 watts. The next year as a pro and she averaged pretty much exactly the same power and went 10 mins or so quicker.

I think if you ask her, she would say the improvements she has made to her position have actually made the position more comfortable - not less.

Definitely worth thinking about.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tri Tim wrote:
My wife has worked her way up from being a first time amateur racing at Dorney lake 10 years ago to racing professionally for BMC this year.

One of the single biggest differences she has ever made to her bike splits was thinking properly about aerodynamics - not so much to equipment choices (although that helps) but the way her body is positioned on the bike. It makes a massive difference if you want to be remotely competitive and was a gamechanger for her.

As an example - she raced Dublin 70.3 two years in a row - 2016 and 2017 i think. The first was as an age grouper and she averaged something like 225 watts. The next year as a pro and she averaged pretty much exactly the same power and went 10 mins or so quicker.

I think if you ask her, she would say the improvements she has made to her position have actually made the position more comfortable - not less.

Definitely worth thinking about.


Hi, thanks for the response.

Can I ask, did she tinker herself, or did someone help? If so, are they a fitter?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important to remember that older gear is not necessarily inferior to newer products aero wise too. Brands have to release new kit to keep sales turning over, and much of 'gains' are just marketing.

Perfect example is Giro claiming that the (newer) Air Attack was more aero than the Advantage 2. As Ray Liotta would say..."get the f* outta here".
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I think it's important to remember that older gear is not necessarily inferior to newer products aero wise too. Brands have to release new kit to keep sales turning over, and much of 'gains' are just marketing.

Perfect example is Giro claiming that the (newer) Air Attack was more aero than the Advantage 2. As Ray Liotta would say..."get the f* outta here".


Yeah, I'm more interested in how much difference position can make - whilst still being able to ride 5 hours and run, rather than needing someone to uncurl you before collapsing in a heap.

There was an interesting report on the other place about a guy who did aero testing in Germany and had a CDA of 0.28xxx and it made no difference.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1053
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year I did the Outlaw half with an NP 11W higher than the Outlaw the previous year. I did the Outlaw on my road bike and the half on my new (to me) TT bike and was 3.5kmh faster for the half with the same road helmet and box rim wheels. I'm pretty sure the position made a huge difference.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Last year I did the Outlaw half with an NP 11W higher than the Outlaw the previous year. I did the Outlaw on my road bike and the half on my new (to me) TT bike and was 3.5kmh faster for the half with the same road helmet and box rim wheels. I'm pretty sure the position made a huge difference.


I appreciate that what you say is most likely true. But you're comparing a ride where you went faster with higher NP, and on a different course.
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iwaters




Joined: 06 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tri Tim wrote:
My wife has worked her way up from being a first time amateur racing at Dorney lake 10 years ago to racing professionally for BMC this year.

One of the single biggest differences she has ever made to her bike splits was thinking properly about aerodynamics - not so much to equipment choices (although that helps) but the way her body is positioned on the bike. It makes a massive difference if you want to be remotely competitive and was a gamechanger for her.

As an example - she raced Dublin 70.3 two years in a row - 2016 and 2017 i think. The first was as an age grouper and she averaged something like 225 watts. The next year as a pro and she averaged pretty much exactly the same power and went 10 mins or so quicker.

I think if you ask her, she would say the improvements she has made to her position have actually made the position more comfortable - not less.

Definitely worth thinking about.


Yep the least aerodynamic thing is the rider. Getting position right is worth loads. Gucci wheels and helmets make a relatively small difference.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1053
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Last year I did the Outlaw half with an NP 11W higher than the Outlaw the previous year. I did the Outlaw on my road bike and the half on my new (to me) TT bike and was 3.5kmh faster for the half with the same road helmet and box rim wheels. I'm pretty sure the position made a huge difference.


I appreciate that what you say is most likely true. But you're comparing a ride where you went faster with higher NP, and on a different course.

I hear you and wouldn't disagree. I would say the course is very similar as obviously a lot of the course is the same, which I know you know but the difference in avg speed versus NP does feel disproportionate.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Last year I did the Outlaw half with an NP 11W higher than the Outlaw the previous year. I did the Outlaw on my road bike and the half on my new (to me) TT bike and was 3.5kmh faster for the half with the same road helmet and box rim wheels. I'm pretty sure the position made a huge difference.


I appreciate that what you say is most likely true. But you're comparing a ride where you went faster with higher NP, and on a different course.

I hear you and wouldn't disagree. I would say the course is very similar as obviously a lot of the course is the same, which I know you know but the difference in avg speed versus NP does feel disproportionate.


Quite. An extra 3.5kph on 11w would need some seriously good aero gains like-for-like. Unfortunately returns are diminishing, so the next 3.5kph are probably going to need some serious wattage.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Last year I did the Outlaw half with an NP 11W higher than the Outlaw the previous year. I did the Outlaw on my road bike and the half on my new (to me) TT bike and was 3.5kmh faster for the half with the same road helmet and box rim wheels. I'm pretty sure the position made a huge difference.


I appreciate that what you say is most likely true. But you're comparing a ride where you went faster with higher NP, and on a different course.

I hear you and wouldn't disagree. I would say the course is very similar as obviously a lot of the course is the same, which I know you know but the difference in avg speed versus NP does feel disproportionate.


Quite. An extra 3.5kph on 11w would need some seriously good aero gains like-for-like. Unfortunately returns are diminishing, so the next 3.5kph are probably going to need some serious wattage.

I'd better start training Crying or Very sad

Monday's always a rest day on those plans isn't it?

ETA: I just remembered that was 3-4kg heavier for the Outlaw half in 2018 compared to the Outlaw in 2017. (it isn't muscle)


Last edited by Pedro Peru on Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 779
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took my TT bike out yesterday for first time since September

It always surprises me how much faster a TT bike is than road bike. I did a 31km flatish ride, and despite pretty low power numbers, speed was around 2-3kph quicker than my road bike

Next point is power, in aero position I was not able to achieve the same level of power as I get on my road bike.... although this is possibly due a hard ride on Saturday
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 437
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always surprises me how much faster a TT bike is than road bike. I did a 31km flatish ride, and despite pretty low power numbers, speed was around 2-3kph quicker than my road bike

I've been recording my power/speed through a flat 2km Strava segment for about 2 years now. I set it up to do some basic aero comparisons so always ride the road bike on the drops and the TT bike on the aero bars.

The difference varies with speed, conditions etc but the average is pretty much what you got there.
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