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Andy_S




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:30 pm    Post subject: Base training Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

I'm getting confused about training again! I'm reading about base training and they're saying all my training for the next 10 weeks should be in the aerobic zone which is <145bpm for me. They say that without that training my body won't learn to use fat as fuel and I won't make it. They say slow down until you're in the zone and don't be tempted to speed up.

However, I can't slow down enough to get it that low. Any sort of running take it much higher than that as does any sort of hill on the bike. Not sure about swimming but it wouldn't surprise me to find my HR up in the 150/160's. Does that mean I'm not going to have endurance when racing as I'll be using carbs and suffer bonk after a couple of hours? Or is that advice for the super-fit (or fitter than me)?

At the moment my HR average is about 160 for running and cycling when on a regular run/bike (ie, not a speed workout which I'm not doing at the mo).

I couldn't find an emoticon scratching it's head so this'll have to do. Pick Nose
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slowpoke rodriguez




Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 1836
Location: Wales

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, there's 2 approaches you can take.

1. Stick with trying to keep your heart rate at around the 145bpm mark, even if this feels like you're running super slow, or have to walk the hills. You will be amazed that after a month or so how much your heart rate has come down. It's also nice to do sessions where you're not busting your balls every time too. Same goes for cycling where your hr might be around 5 - 10 bpm slower than for the equivalent effort when running.

2. Use rate of perceived exertion (rpe) as a check/balance. Aerobic work whatever exercise you happen to be doing should be at a level where you feel comfortable and could easily hold a conversation with a training partner. This is particularly useful when swimming where you can't use your hrm.

Stick at it anyway. I've got to do a sh!tload of base building and probably won't do a lot else for the next 8 - 12 weeks.
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Sue




Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 6269
Location: North Wales

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I try to get my HR low Andy never works Crying or Very sad Tried it running and even when I dropped to 12minute mileing (which by the way is slow even for me) it didnt drop. So tried it on the bike and out of an hour only was in zone for 7 mins Confused Tried it recently on the turbo since they give you zones, and out of 1 -20 when I should have been in 12 or lower I was in 15 or higher Shocked
So I tend to go for Slowpokes 2 --but cant chat while I'm swimming (makes a note to try Wink )
I've never "bonked" in a race either Embarassed --maybe enter teh wrong ones
But if it works let me know and I may slow down even further (but then again Smile )
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Bexleyheath Runner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy - how have you worked out your Aerobic figure at <145bpm? ie: have you tested your Max heart rate or used the formula.

I don't rely on just HRM's and normally use just RPE and my Speed Distance monitor to check my pace.

However after reading your post I brought forward my training run and have just gone out with my Speed Distance Monitor and HRM.

(How's that for service for my fellow forum members Cool )

Distance: 4 miles
Avg Pace: 9 mins 2 seconds
RPE - felt very easy , could have easily spoken to someone if they were there, didn't fancy speaking out loud as a test just incase people thought I was mad. Wink

Now according to the Bible and basing things on %LT (Lactate Threshold Rate) my Zone2 range should be 144 to 154

I averaged 159, so a little bit over.

Now I could base things on just HRM in which case I should slow down my runs a bit however like Sue that would mean a mile rate which would be too slow for my liking.

So the moral to this long and rambling post is that I wouldn't worry too much, if the run feels easy and you are not miles over your zone then just carry on as you are. I wouldn't think you would bonk just because you push some of your base training a little bit.

I should also point out that if I carry anymore gadgets with me while running I may as well just bring the laptop and be done with it. I had the HRM monitor round my chest. HRM watch on right hand, GPS Receiver on left arm and Speed Distance watch on left hand.

Crazy Razz Razz
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Andy_S




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Simon, you're too kind.

I arrived at that figure based on the article I read (link at the bottom), it said take your age from 180 (so formula). But, while I was up the gym running I thought a little more about what I read.

Based on my HRM/bike speedo/guess work I'll need about 2.5k calories to complete the event. I should have 1500 on board as carbs and I can digest 250 an hour as food/drink. Thatís almost exactly the 2.5k I need without using and fat as fuel (which I guess you'd use a percentage of naturally anyway) so I wondered why I suddenly got so concerned. Then I realised, it was an article by Mark Allen about completing an Ironman!

So panic over, I'll get back to plodding along and trying to improve from week to week. I just ran 4 miles on the tread mill on the 'hill' setting and my HR average was 160 which about normal (max is about 190 which I achieved climbing a cliff on the bike) but I felt really tired, all sorts of muscles getting stiff and knees feeling sore so I stopped. I'll have a day off tomorrow and see how things are on Friday.

Thanks for the help.

http://vnews.ironmanlive.com/vnews/markallen/1011626750/
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Bexleyheath Runner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy - I haven't got time to read the article as I'm off out but I always thought the formula was either 220 - age or 205 - half your age.

It's so confusing isn't it,

Anyway you must be pretty fit by now so get out and test your max heart rate, find yourself a nice hill that takes 1 to 2 mins to run up, making sure you are fully warmed-up run up the hill at a fast pace, then jog back down, then repeat another 4 times. Then check your MHR

That's what I was told to do to test my MHR for running. Obviously not the normal part of base training but all good fun.

By the end of Base Training we are ALL going to be so fit we'll probably be doing the MHR tests as warm-ups for our Build work Wink (I wish)
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Robert




Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 9238
Location: Back from outer space

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the above, really - a lot depends on your max. My theoretical max should be 220-33=187. When I started getting worried when I kept going over 190 while cycling, I did a "proper" test and found mine to be 202. This meant that HR145 is waaaay too low for me and should be aiming for HR160 for LSD training.

I've heard that cycling HR is 10 beats higher than running HR, so I now feel better when I go over the 140 mark when the treadmill goes beyond walking distance! Embarassed
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Andy_S




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blimey, I'd hoped there was a way around the 'run up the hill' test but I guess I'll have to do it. I think I'll get a new HRM before I do as I don't trust the one I've got. Maybe the batteries are low as it gives inconsistent readings, the tread mill reading is way different from the watch reading and the watch reading jumps about (as if it's having trouble communicating with the strap). The Mrs wants to come to the gym too so I'll get her one and steal it Very Happy

Maybe it's time I read something and got a bit more serious or at least know what I'm supposed to be doing.
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Robert




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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha! Happened to me once - I was running on level 12 on the treadmill (fast for me) and it was showing HR105 - I thought I had become superhuman but my laboured breathing told me otherwise!

The next day, the batteries conked out on my HRM - have yet to send them away for replacement
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Andy_S




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gym was packed last night, mostly with fatties getting some lard off for christmas but there was one guy who obviously knew what he was doing. He was sort of doing slow sets on the tread mill, slowly running 1k then stretching, walking around and warming up. He repeated that about 4 times before setting off for his proper run. He set the mill to number 9.6 and his HR stayed at 84 for the 15 odd minutes I run next to him.

Mine goes over 100 while changing for the gym! I was running at number 11 (then slowed it to 10 after 5k) and my HR was around 165! Made me feel quite unfit.
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slowpoke rodriguez




Joined: 11 Jun 2003
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Location: Wales

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some HRMs suffer interference from gym equipment so will misread, and if the batteries are on the way out the readings will be all over the shop.

Rob, the cycling hr should be about 10 beats lower than running.
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Robert




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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowpoke rodriguez wrote:
Rob, the cycling hr should be about 10 beats lower than running.


Shocked do you mean while exercising at a set rate or the max HR? I can't see myself going to 212 on a run without having a coronary!
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slowpoke rodriguez




Joined: 11 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, at a set rate, so if your max hr is 202 then it would be 192 when you're on the bike. Apparently the difference varies from person to person - in Joe Friels training bible he only allows for a difference of about 3 - 5 bpm lower for cycling. For me its nearer 10 - which is probably because I'm lazy.
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Sue




Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 6269
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy if you didnt want to find a hill to test your max HR, I have been told somewhere along the road to do 3 mins flat out on treadmill, 90 secs rest then another 3 mins flat out by which time you will have reached your max, Smile --the only time I tested, as I was nearing the end my monitor went blank!!! Shocked And I wasnt about to start over again --I do keep thinking I must re-try, after all its only 6 mins of pain!!
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Andy_S




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whohoo, my new HRM has arrived! It's just like Christmas. Oh, it is Christmas. I'll spend the rest of the morning trying to work the thing.

Good old Wiggle, ordered online and delivered in under 24 hrs.
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