Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1434 Location: UK and Australia
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:35 am Post subject:
Hi Hywel,
I've been using this method (aka "Galloway" - www.jeffgalloway.com) with my Ironman and HIM athletes for ~ 5 years now since one of my guys asked me to investigate it further. Initially (like you) I was very skeptical. He went into his first IM with a fresh marathon PB of 4:30 and hoped to do a 12:30 Ironman - using the 9:1 method he actually ran 3:52 off the bike and finished in 11:06 overall - needless to say he was chuffed to bits!
Well worthwhile investigating if nothing else. I see it as having four major benefits:
1) psychological - allowing you to break down the run segment into manageable chunks
2) nutritional - allowing you to get a reasonable drink / feed at each station (or at every walk break) rather than throwing it all over your face and as such fueling yourself efficiently for later in the run
3) pacing* - initially it feels like you're losing ground on those who continue running, but come 25km or so, you're still holding your pace for the run component and making ground back up (which also has a psychological boost)
4) physical impact on your legs - whilst not proven, anecdotally with everyone that I have done this with, they have experienced much less muscle discomfort after a 2h30 training run than without doing it, even if they covered the same distance in the same time. You could then argue that over the course of a 20 to 26 week IM program that this would ensure better recovery rates, ability to train and adapt at a higher level and also potentially suffer less injuries as a result. Possibly.
* I devised a simple calculator that allows me to work with my athletes and show them what run pace they need to hold for a given run-walk ratio and for a set distance and overall goal time.
So for example, say you want to break 3:00 for the marathon, a 2:59 run time equates to an average pace of 4:15/km. If you were to do 14'1 run and 1' walk (at 8:30/km - which is actually quite comfortable), you'd need to do the run segment at "just" 4:06/km - not a massive difference (9" per km) I'm sure you'll agree if you've trained specifically like this.
I tried run/walk and just found it upset my rhythm and getting running again became harder and harder until I didn't bother running any more.
I found not stopping to be key for me. As I have problems getting going again, don't stop. Only tried it to half ironman though but I'm sure its still relevant as I hammered the bike so was plenty fatigued.
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 4172 Location: Exiled in Birmingham
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject:
The secret is to train this way.
Paul suggested I ran this way for my Ironman due to me breaking down a lot with injuries. I have to say I never thought Id get the mileage in pre race that I have but training this way Ive missed very little time with running injuries and can only put it down to this.
It was hard to start with but after a few sessions it actually became really easy and was a nice way to break up the runs and get the mileage out and considered it a reward when my walk minute arrived.
Like most others I was too proud to try at first but having seen my clubmate qualify for Hawaii this way last year was prepared to give it a go, and dont regret it
_________________ Pain is temporary.....Pride is forever
Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 858 Location: trying to keep up!
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject:
I think the other key here is that this is a perfect strategy for someone who, like me, is never likely to be able to run the entire marathon anyway. I can't do a stand alone marathon running non stop, so therefore its always going to be a run/walk strategy for me.
I understand the concerns about breaking up the rythm by stopping and starting, but I found the opposite effect; by knowing i would be walking in 2 minutes time, i was able to keep running with a 'mini' goal in mind, rather than just run and run and run until i couldn't any more.
for IMUK last year my goal was simple, in the end. In order to finish inside cut off, i had to do 15 minute miles. I was able to do that by a run/walk strategy and was very pleased to be able to run a bit of every mile, despite nearly killing myself on the bike leg
Its a really interesting topic, though, as i've always dreamed of being able to run an entire marathon but even with 5 months of pretty much nothing but marathon run training this year, I still didn't manage it, and only came in 30 mins quicker, for a pure marathon, than my IMUK run time the previous summer. I'd probably have been better off doing a run/walk from the beginning for the marathon!
Will give the show a listen, but thats what i'll be aiming to do this weekend!
Fingers crossed i get as far as that _________________ What doesn't make you stronger Kills you!
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1434 Location: UK and Australia
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject:
Paisley wrote:
Like most others I was too proud to try at first but having seen my clubmate qualify for Hawaii this way last year was prepared to give it a go, and dont regret it
The "ego factor" is an interesting discussion point...at the end of the day its all about a) whether or not you finish the run, and then b) about how quickly you did it. Like Bobby McGee says in the podcast, if you do the run-walk and finished in 3:59 compared to if you ran the "whole" thing* but did 4:30, others would be more impressed with the 3:59 than the 4:30 regardless of how you did it.
* I write "whole" like such as the point is raised in the podcast that most people end up walking ~10-15% of the marathon anyway due to being forced to do so from fatigue (according to McGee)...best to have those walk segments neatly divided up into a proactive plan than being reactive to the situation (as McGee says).
Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: In the pool, getting faster
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject:
I do all my long run training this way
Found it is especially beneficial when I'm not in 'long run' shape - can always knock out 2 hours or more using this strategy. Usually use the minute to sip a drink and or take a gel. Breaks the run up nicely. Makes it feel more like 'interval training' to me as well, mentally easier for me
Use it to race IMs as well, although usually change the ratio so that I walk the aid station every 2 miles, or whereever they're placed. Gives you a good mental as well as physical break, and ensures that you always get some fluids in, without spilling most of it over your body
In a straight marathon though, I always go with just running it. Would be very interesting to be in good marathon shape and then race it on a 9/1 shedule. Galloway claims one of his athletes has run 2.40 on this schedule. Gordo ran his 2.45 at IMcanada using this schedule as well.
WOuld be very interested to hear how a top caliber racer like TTowel got on trying it.
_________________ "There are times when your body is saying, 'I don't want to do this,' and your mind says, 'Shut up, body, and do what I tell you!'" - Jens Voigt
Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 2098 Location: Swim School
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject:
Although now done 13 IMs, and once did 2.58 for a run, albeit on the short IMUK course but I seem to get faster through the bike leg, have a solid first 20 miles, but then fade towards the end, i dont really blow up but just cant lift the pace.
A lot of it makes sense to me and its the discipline of taking the walks early what will be hard to take.
At Roth, my first 8kms were 4.00-4.10, but the last 5 were 4.40-4.50
In the past, i have blown to 6 min kms but nutritionally in control of that now.
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 Posts: 564 Location: Training, eating cake or working
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject:
Due to a combination of my stomach packing up/heat/lack of confidence in my first IM, in Germany I ended up walking briefly at each aid station to try and get some coke down me - about 10m every 1500m. Original plan had been a brief walk every 20mins to get half a gel in.
Though my run time was not great, I did notice that my recovery afterwards was much, much quicker than after a straight marathon. Instead of being crippled for days, I was running up the stairs within a couple of days. This is probably partly due to the fact that I didn't "push" the run in any sense (and regret that in retropsect) but doubtless stopping will have aided it quite a bit.
As and when I do another, I probably won't attempt to run the whole thing, but will probably try and limit the stops to something like the strategy I had originally had.
Just my 2p worth...
_________________ Moderation is the key to mediocrity
Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 2098 Location: Swim School
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:
MattH wrote:
Just my 2p worth...
Please dont use that phrase.
Its an interesting concept, I always tell the people I coach to enforce your own walk strategy rather than do as a necessity. The selling point for me is the food intake, when i have managed to get more food down, i run better. Funny that! At other times i feel like i'm running well and running too fast to stop for fuel. Yes, silly but when you feel like puking at the back end of a 3 hour marathon, not many things are that appealing.
I think i will try something different anyway. Recovery is not an issue, the day after the double i was running up and down stairs....in fact it was the same day.
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Joined: 15 Aug 2004 Posts: 564 Location: Training, eating cake or working
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject:
The original stopping to eat was as I tend to feel a bit sick if I take gels on when running - either racing or in a training session. Not sure why, as after I have had them I get cracking straight away and have not too much trouble (if sticking to my pre-race plan - which I haven't always done in marathons and paid the price).
I think if you leave it until the strategy if forced on you, you are cooked. At 5k to go, I thought I could nick under 9.40, so very much upped my run tempo (still stopping every 1500m). I doubt many could do this at the end of the race, but this is perhaps just indicative of my having been too conservative earlier in the run.
The reason I added the 2p reference is as I have no prior experience or knowledge of IM, so am fully aware of the fact that anything I have to say on the subject might smell strongly of bullsh1t.
_________________ Moderation is the key to mediocrity
Joined: 03 May 2009 Posts: 1197 Location: On Sticks:(
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject:
well, you guys have given me food for thought. Sh1t year of training /injuries and v litttle running and iron distance race in 4 weeks.
So i tried this run/walk thing tonight. 15 miles worth.
Went with 9/1 as suugested by paul above (couldnt face more walking)
Motivationally it was excellent - looking for the 1 min breaks really helps chunk the run down. Started to die at 13 miles, but normally i wouldnt be able to put weight my knees after that distance....
Will let you know if any more problems make themselves known in next 48 hours, but if not i am going with this startegy for my long "runs" between now and The Big Woody.
This thread may have saved my race...
_________________ The only people who can be called a failure are those who have never failed.
For my input, I felt it was a cop out. What I couldn't get around is why should I train to run-walk and not just raise my game to run-run. Surely, being able to run the run is the aim and also proof that you've executed your race plan perfectly. Setting out to run-walk felt, to me, as if I was already accepting that I wasn't fit enough or didn't have the discipline to stick to the plan (both are probably correct) and while I achieved 12:53 with a run-walk, my overriding thought now is that I'd have gone sub-12 if I was fit enough to run it all, even if I faded towards the end.
It certainly isn't something I'll be trying again.
I have only used RW strategies in ultras so cannot comment on the IM question. However, in addition to saving my legs and allowing me to maintain a more constant pacing, I would second SwimSmooth's comments about the mental boost about breaking the run into small chunks with the motivation of a bit of food at the end. "Ten minutes to the next chunk of mint cake", feels much better than only "30 miles to go now!!!"
_________________ " I don't think its good for the future of any endurance sport when going slowly for a long time...is held in higher regard than going fast for a short distance" Joe Friel (Aug 2009)
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