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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:19 am    Post subject: Terror Reply with quote

Reading the BBC news this morning I am shaking my head. It seems to me that the word terror is being used so often by politicians and the media that it is becoming absurd.

The mi5 definition of terrorism the last time I checked was political in nature, designed to cause fear in populations etc. But some of these terror events that are being reported, while serious and need to be dealt with, could just be normal crimes (subject to anything we might not be being told).

I mean I know that back in 2010 or whenever I wrote to the Conservative party explaining how their new austerity policies could be seen as terrorism (politically motivated, inducing fear into people etc), but come on, if you bandy the word about for almost every crime then it just becomes a bit silly.

(I have passed a Georgetown mooc on terrorism, a Harvard mooc on American national security and the press, and been proof reading my daughters Criminology papers, and while I will most probably never find out I have good reason to believe that I may have helped prevent at least one major act of terrorism (just leave it I am not here to argue) btw so I do know a bit about Terrorism).

While there are real terrorist threats at the moment, by seeing terrorists everywhere will just (1) risk inducing further fear, (2) make terrorism such a bland thing, oh he carried a knife so he was a terrorist etc.

What do you think?
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does but there is a serious legal issue in international law on how people are designated, consequently how they are to be treated, and hence the rise of labels such as terrorist.

There are similar issues with international crime, and non-state states like Somalia and Afghanistan/Pakistan border areas.

If our mechanism treats someone who is an Islamist terrorist linked to Al Q'Aeda as nothing more than someone illegally carrying knives then effective action is difficult to progress.

On the whole I don't care what the news says or what the public think, until it affects things like our inaction on Syria.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:


On the whole I don't care what the news says or what the public think, until it affects things like our inaction on Syria.


we've been involved in Syria in one way or another since the 70s
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
It does but there is a serious legal issue in international law on how people are designated, consequently how they are to be treated, and hence the rise of labels such as terrorist.

There are similar issues with international crime, and non-state states like Somalia and Afghanistan/Pakistan border areas.

If our mechanism treats someone who is an Islamist terrorist linked to Al Q'Aeda as nothing more than someone illegally carrying knives then effective action is difficult to progress.

On the whole I don't care what the news says or what the public think, until it affects things like our inaction on Syria.
Tin Pot, thank you I had not considered that perspective.

That is what I love about this forum, different life experiences, different knowledge, shared for mutual benefit.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The word 'terror' has more impact, which is why it can be used effectively by organisations to pursue their respective agendas.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
The word 'terror' has more impact, which is why it can be used effectively by organisations to pursue their respective agendas.


but, as TP says, it still has a specific definition which it is important to use...that it gets used politically is, of course, the whole point...
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
The word 'terror' has more impact, which is why it can be used effectively by organisations to pursue their respective agendas.


but, as TP says, it still has a specific definition which it is important to use...that it gets used politically is, of course, the whole point...
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
It does but there is a serious legal issue in international law on how people are designated, consequently how they are to be treated, and hence the rise of labels such as terrorist.

There are similar issues with international crime, and non-state states like Somalia and Afghanistan/Pakistan border areas.

If our mechanism treats someone who is an Islamist terrorist linked to Al Q'Aeda as nothing more than someone illegally carrying knives then effective action is difficult to progress.

On the whole I don't care what the news says or what the public think, until it affects things like our inaction on Syria.
Tin Pot, thank you I had not considered that perspective.

That is what I love about this forum, different life experiences, different knowledge, shared for mutual benefit.


Spot on. Prosecuting someone for carrying a knife is significantly different to treating someone as a terrorist. It all depends on the intentions of the perpetrator (which can only be known based on intel) and the risk profile of releasing said person.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
The word 'terror' has more impact, which is why it can be used effectively by organisations to pursue their respective agendas.


but, as TP says, it still has a specific definition which it is important to use...that it gets used politically is, of course, the whole point...


But the greatest misuse is arguably not by politicians.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
The word 'terror' has more impact, which is why it can be used effectively by organisations to pursue their respective agendas.


but, as TP says, it still has a specific definition which it is important to use...that it gets used politically is, of course, the whole point...


But the greatest misuse is arguably not by politicians.


who else uses it who doesn't have a political agenda?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take what was in the press yesterday, I am working from half read memory so ignore any errors and focus on the concept.

1. Bloke carrying knife get stopped by police.
2. He was near 'the official residence of the prime minister' hence terrorist.

That is flawed logic.

Now it may be that mi5 knew his intentions as Jgav said, in which case fair enough (but report accurately).

But to say that someone who is carrying a knife is a terrorist simply because they happen to be near Downing Street is ludicrous.

I know that I am going to regret using this as an illustration but just as it may well be that people who become delusional tend to have a history of believing in the paranormal, that does not logically mean that everyone who believes in the paranormal will become delusional.

I mean it is perfectly possible that a bloke (albeit up to no good) may simply be passing Downing Street on his way to rob a shop down the road, and Downing Street happens to be on the direct route from their home.

Critical thinking matters, especially at a time that globally and locally we are breaking up. Without wisdom in politics and in the press we could easily wander down some very dark roads at this precise point in time.

That all said I do get that sometimes it would not be possible to explain why someone was a terrorist due to inadvertently giving up sources and means of intelligence gathering etc.

Equally to designate a group of people as terrorists just to deal with them, is little different to what America did re Gitmo. And we all know how that turned out (President Obama publicly apologising for what America did). Thinking of which has Trump restarted renditions and Gitmo again?
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Last edited by SloggingScotsman on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:

But to say that someone who is carrying a knife is a terrorist simply because they happen to be near Downing Street is ludicrous.


You missed the point; he was a 'person of interest' to the security services.

explorerJC wrote:

who else uses it who doesn't have a political agenda?


The various people who make money out of it, politically affiliated or not. C'mon, you know the rest.
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Whisk




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Take what was in the press yesterday, I am working from half read memory so ignore any errors and focus on the concept.

1. Bloke carrying knife get stopped by police.
2. He was near 'the official residence of the prime minister' hence terrorist.

That is flawed logic.

Now it may be that mi5 knew his intentions as Jgav said, in which case fair enough (but report accurately).

But to say that someone who is carrying a knife is a terrorist simply because they happen to be near Downing Street is ludicrous.

I know that I am going to regret using this as an illustration but just as it may well be that people who become delusional tend to have a history of believing in the paranormal, that does not logically mean that everyone who believes in the paranormal will become delusional.

I mean it is perfectly possible that a bloke (albeit up to no good) may simply be passing Downing Street on his way to rob a shop down the road, and Downing Street happens to be on the direct route from their home.

Critical thinking matters, especially at a time that globally and locally we are breaking up. Without wisdom in politics and in the press we could easily wander down some very dark roads at this precise point in time.

That all said I do get that sometimes it would not be possible to explain why someone was a terrorist due to inadvertently giving up sources and means of intelligence gathering etc.

Equally to designate a group of people as terrorists just to deal with them, is little different to what America did re Gitmo. And we all know how that turned out. Thinking of which has Trump restarted renditions and Gitmo again?


According to the news reports, he was under surveillance by police/intelligence services, so not just some random guy on his way to rob a convenience store.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:

But to say that someone who is carrying a knife is a terrorist simply because they happen to be near Downing Street is ludicrous.


You missed the point; he was a 'person of interest' to the security services.

given that the security services probably have info on everyone, then everyone can be called 'person of interest' or 'known to security services'.

I mean, given what I have done in life, I am sure that I am a 'person of interest' to many security services globally. Doesn't make me a terrorist. It may just mean that some (rightly given the cutting edge stuff I do) may keep an eye out.

I mean that I know of:-

1. One American chap took a deep interest in what I was doing, and one day I just said to him to stop beating around the bush and if he was CIA or whoever just ask me what he want to know. He neither confirmed nor denied, but took the opportunity to talk to me for a good hour and more. He did say at the end of it all iirc that 'what he struggles with was how I am not after a buck just for people to be nice to each other' or similar.

2. One chap told me he was in 'Canadian security' or similar and 'had a chat'.

Clearly they could just be random blokes having fun or just having innocent interest, but combined with other stuff over the years, I think it would be fair comment to say that I am known to global spooks (bearing in mind that my hobbies before declassification were used by spies, and given that I have brought them somewhat up to date).

Hence my thinking that 'person of interest' or 'known to security services' could probably be truthfully be applied to everyone in the press.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:

I mean, given what I have done in life, I am sure that I am a 'person of interest' to many security services globally.


Once more, you flatter yourself.
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