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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea, if there is one, of zone 2 is that it's below your lactate threshold, so it's below the point where lactate is at resting levels. Where that actually is, is going to be guesswork, and it appears to differ significantly between people.

I actually think that people who process lactate pretty well run their easy runs at a higher pace than others who don't, but I've nothing but a few people who are like that, and no exceptions.

Either way, I don't think it's really particularly useful to run to zones (particularly if you think an average of 151 in 45 minutes when your zone tops out at 153 is "in a zone") And like Gingerbongo says, running purely on RPE.

Despite a lower max than you, 151 is something I can keep up for a very long time, much longer than my legs would survive, so on a keep it up all day heartrate, it's certainly that, so it would meet that idea of zone 2, but according to others it would be horrible zone 3. I can also done zone 4 daily 30 minutes without the slightest problem.
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have come to the conclusion that Fink, Friel, Strava and Garmin and any other "zone" analysis is just there to confuse people like me.

Therefore I have decided that my easy runs will be at 140bpm avg, with no peaks above 145bpm and I don't care what the zone is

This currently equates to a 10k pace of 50 - 52mins, my (random) target is to see if I can get it to consitently under 50 mins
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that Fink, Friel, Strava and Garmin and any other "zone" analysis is just there to confuse people like me.

Therefore I have decided that my easy runs will be at 140bpm avg, with no peaks above 145bpm and I don't care what the zone is

This currently equates to a 10k pace of 50 - 52mins, my (random) target is to see if I can get it to consitently under 50 mins


I concluded the same last year - it's all a wind up.

If I'm breathing okay in and out of my nose, then that's my aerobic zone and where the vast majority of my training needs to be. I don't use heart rate at all now, but it was useful the last three years while I learned about myself and the science.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as simply as possible...

There are two lactate turn points; the first; usually called TP1, aerobic threshold or lactate threshold (LT); is where blood lactate (BLa) levels begin to rise above baseline and is recorded as approximately 1 mmol/L above resting levels.

The second; TP2, incorrectly anaerobic threshold, functional threshold, or confusingly lactate threshold; is when BLa is at 4 mmol/L. This point is often also referred to as Maximum Level Steady State (MLSS) and beyond it the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation (OBLA).

For exercise levels below TP1, aerobic metabolism is dominant, fuelled predominantly by aerobic lipolysis (fats) with some muscle glycogen (carbohydrates) producing lactate which is cleared as a fuel source. Extended periods of exercise at this level - recovery and endurance levels - improves aerobic efficiency.

As exercise intensity increases moderate and tempo levels - muscle glycogen and blood glucose become the predominant fuel and more lactate is produced.

Theoretically, TP2 is the point at which lactate production equals lactate clearance, or MLSS. Long interval training (from 30 60 mins) with appropriate recovery can take place at this point. Above this point (OBLA), BLa rises exponentially and, depending on the individual's ability to buffer hydrogen ions, exercise will eventually cease due to peripheral fatigue. Short interval training with appropriate recovery can take place at this point.

At very high exercise levels, the increase in intramuscular hydrogen ions inhibit cross-bridge formation resulting in fatigue. This corresponds with increased BLa levels and measuring BLa is therefore an indirect indication of the accumulation of lactate and hydrogen ions within active muscle. The concentration of BLa is a good indication of the predominant metabolism and therefore testing for LT provides a sensitive indicator of current aerobic training status by recording power and/or HR. Corresponding training levels are highly personal and specific to activity and physiological responses are specific to the intensity and duration of exercise.
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Last edited by explorerJC on Wed May 03, 2017 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm breathing okay in and out of my nose, then that's my aerobic zone and where the vast majority of my training needs to be.


This.

MattSurf, you seem to be the mirror of one of my training buddies. He can't get his head around easy pacing. I'd bet my house you aren't running 5min/kms with your mouth shut. Just try it, for say 2 weeks. All zone 2 running and cycling with your mouth shut.

I bet your pace falls. But I also bet that you are (and feel ) fitter for it assuming a balanced training programme.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
MattSurf, you seem to be the mirror of one of my training buddies. He can't get his head around easy pacing. I'd bet my house you aren't running 5min/kms with your mouth shut. Just try it, for say 2 weeks. All zone 2 running and cycling with your mouth shut.


I'm barely faster than MattSurf, but have my mouth shut at 4:15's So I could certainly believe it, there's a lot of assumption about running that appears to be based around research into a certain sort of sub-elite runner and their efficiency / vo2 profiles, which aren't at all representative of everyone.

With explorerJC's point about lactate, when I was forced to stop (running 18kph treadmill IIRC), my lactate never reached 4 mmol's even later, maybe I should do a load of repeated proper MLSS tests but it seems a lot of hassle for no possible use.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's particularly important to remember (as already said) that everyone is different. Hell, there are people all over the shop with better FTPs and w/kg than me, and yet come race day, they are not bettering me on the bike. Yes you can put some of that down to 'aero' but it's also because I can probably sustain a higher % of my FTP than many others who have higher outright power numbers.

"YMMV"
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
MattSurf, you seem to be the mirror of one of my training buddies. He can't get his head around easy pacing. I'd bet my house you aren't running 5min/kms with your mouth shut. Just try it, for say 2 weeks. All zone 2 running and cycling with your mouth shut.


I'm barely faster than MattSurf, but have my mouth shut at 4:15's So I could certainly believe it, there's a lot of assumption about running that appears to be based around research into a certain sort of sub-elite runner and their efficiency / vo2 profiles, which aren't at all representative of everyone.

With explorerJC's point about lactate, when I was forced to stop (running 18kph treadmill IIRC), my lactate never reached 4 mmol's even later, maybe I should do a load of repeated proper MLSS tests but it seems a lot of hassle for no possible use.


yep, VO2 is the sidetrack here...two runners with the same VO2 max, the one with the LT at the higher % of max will generally be faster...

By forced to stop, do you mean voluntarily? As in you could sustain the pace no further?

4 mmol/L is an arbitrary figure but works as an evidence inspired guideline. When working with athletes this is adjusted up or down on an individual basis.

I should also add, in case I forgot earlier, that BLa levels are not not necessarily always equal to muscle lactate. You will also get differing readings from finger and ear lobe samples. Finger tip levels tend to be higher with reported differences as much as:

Resting: 27%
Sub Max: 16%
Maximal 3%
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
It's particularly important to remember (as already said) that everyone is different. Hell, there are people all over the shop with better FTPs and w/kg than me, and yet come race day, they are not bettering me on the bike. Yes you can put some of that down to 'aero' but it's also because I can probably sustain a higher % of my FTP than many others who have higher outright power numbers.

"YMMV"


then, for a range of reasons, they have miscalculated their FTP...
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TriSam




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree EJC. Not everybody can ride at the same % of FTP for the same length of time, regardless of the numerical value that is put on FTP.

Whether this is a physiological or mental thing is up for debate however
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

then, for a range of reasons, they have miscalculated their FTP...


Yes, it's an interesting thought. I'm confident that my FTP is about right, as I can pretty-much hold it for a (hilly & long) sprint course (42 min at 0.96 or 0.98 depending which Garmin you believe), then run 5.4km @ 3:55/km pace off the bike (high Z4). So threshold for a little over an hour, if we discount the downhills on the bike and transitions.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
I disagree EJC. Not everybody can ride at the same % of FTP for the same length of time, regardless of the numerical value that is put on FTP.

Whether this is a physiological or mental thing is up for debate however


then it wasn't functional...
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
With explorerJC's point about lactate, when I was forced to stop (running 18kph treadmill IIRC), my lactate never reached 4 mmol's even later, maybe I should do a load of repeated proper MLSS tests but it seems a lot of hassle for no possible use.


yep, VO2 is the sidetrack here...two runners with the same VO2 max, the one with the LT at the higher % of max will generally be faster...

By forced to stop, do you mean voluntarily? As in you could sustain the pace no further?[/quote]

Yes, I could no longer sustain the pace, obviously it being a treadmill test there's a risk aspect so I naturally stop whilst I'm still able to jump off rather than fail and end in a heap on the mat behind. So I probably could've sustained the pace for a bit longer if I really had to.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
With explorerJC's point about lactate, when I was forced to stop (running 18kph treadmill IIRC), my lactate never reached 4 mmol's even later, maybe I should do a load of repeated proper MLSS tests but it seems a lot of hassle for no possible use.


yep, VO2 is the sidetrack here...two runners with the same VO2 max, the one with the LT at the higher % of max will generally be faster...

By forced to stop, do you mean voluntarily? As in you could sustain the pace no further?


Yes, I could no longer sustain the pace, obviously it being a treadmill test there's a risk aspect so I naturally stop whilst I'm still able to jump off rather than fail and end in a heap on the mat behind. So I probably could've sustained the pace for a bit longer if I really had to.[/quote]

were you hooked up to gas analysis?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's going on with your quoting Jim?

I don't actually know what my absolute MHR is these days; does anyone here do maximal testing (to failure) regularly?
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