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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
What's going on with your quoting Jim?

I don't actually know what my absolute MHR is these days; does anyone here do maximal testing (to failure) regularly?


every time i go outside, it seems Rolling Eyes
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
I disagree EJC. Not everybody can ride at the same % of FTP for the same length of time, regardless of the numerical value that is put on FTP.

Whether this is a physiological or mental thing is up for debate however
From what I was talked through by a US cycling coach at a tri camp, I'd also disagree.

He was adamant the general definition I've always heard for FTP (sustainable power for 60 mins) was wrong. He said FTP is something you grow into. He put high importance on another WKO metric (TTE - time to exhaustion) and how he has some athletes that have similar FTPs, but one who has just improved to that level might only have a TTE of 30-45 mins, whereas another is a couple of hours. FTP and TTE together were his important metrics to predict possible performance

Based on what Jorgan was saying, he would probably be the latter.

I'm definitely not experienced in all of this however, and very much go by trainerroad and all their on screen text has FTP as the 60min definition.


Last edited by stenard on Wed May 03, 2017 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
What's going on with your quoting Jim?

I don't actually know what my absolute MHR is these days; does anyone here do maximal testing (to failure) regularly?


every time i go outside, it seems Rolling Eyes


Very Happy I know that once I go above 160, I'm on borrowed time.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jibberjim"]
tuckandgo wrote:
MattSurf, you seem to be the mirror of one of my training buddies. He can't get his head around easy pacing. I'd bet my house you aren't running 5min/kms with your mouth shut. Just try it, for say 2 weeks. All zone 2 running and cycling with your mouth shut.


I'm barely faster than MattSurf, but have my mouth shut at 4:15's


Do you have exceptionally large nostrils?! Shocked
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
were you hooked up to gas analysis?


Yes, no plateau, but that's not surprising, I've never plateau'd in running in previous tests, that despite now me being mostly a runner (I'm obviously not really anything, but my cycling volume is tiny now)
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
I'm barely faster than MattSurf, but have my mouth shut at 4:15's


Do you have exceptionally large nostrils?! Shocked


to be fair, I actually mostly do have my mouth open, but then I do when I'm walking around at under 100 HR, I'm a slack jawed yokel from devon after all. But I don't need to have my mouth open and I'm certainly primarily breathing through my nose and can continue a conversation without thought - mind you above about 10minute duration max pace I can still have a conversation.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
TriSam wrote:
I disagree EJC. Not everybody can ride at the same % of FTP for the same length of time, regardless of the numerical value that is put on FTP.

Whether this is a physiological or mental thing is up for debate however
From what I was talked through by a US cycling coach at a tri camp, I'd also disagree.

He was adamant the general definition I've always heard for FTP (sustainable power for 60 mins) was wrong. He said FTP is something you grow into. He put high importance on another WKO metric (TTE - time to exhaustion) and how he has some athletes that have similar FTPs, but one who has just improved to that level might only have a TTE of 30-45 mins, whereas another is a couple of hours. FTP and TTE together were his important metrics to predict possible performance

Based on what Jorgan was saying, he would probably be the latter.

I'm definitely not experienced in all of this however, and very much go by trainerroad and all their on screen text has FTP as the 60min definition.


Whilst there are no absolutes with physiology (in that day to day, person to person results will differ for many reasons), FTP is a reasonably good measure of sustainable power for the period tested, for the athlete tested, at the time of testing.

Where this process is flawed is that the start point of the test and the end point of the test lack a degree of validity and thus the calculation is certainly not comparable athlete to athlete.

The variables are complex and thus the calculation is open to a wide margin of error, especially when a 20 minute test is used to determine 60 minute performance. Just one variable - a greater ability to buffer hydrogen ions - may result in an elevated 20 mins which throw any one hour calculation way off. In that sense, the cycling coach is correct...that athlete may grow into their calculated 20 min FTP over 60 mins with training...but that highlights the problem with the test.

That is why lactate testing is better, although still not bullet proof, but at least provides more workable data. Or, of course, learn to do 60 minute tests (or for the duration you intend to race)....
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
What's going on with your quoting Jim?

I don't actually know what my absolute MHR is these days; does anyone here do maximal testing (to failure) regularly?


It's rubbish - no I have no idea of my max HR, the only testing to failure I've done recently was the lab testing, which I did purely to be a practice test subject, rather than any interest in being lab tested.

An FTP, and the ability to sustain particular percentages that FTP over different durations does not mean that the FTP was wrong. FTP is a functional measure of 60 minutes, it says nothing about what you might do over 4 hours or 30 minutes. There's a general idea, but it will certainly differ considerably between individuals.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
were you hooked up to gas analysis?


Yes, no plateau, but that's not surprising, I've never plateau'd in running in previous tests, that despite now me being mostly a runner (I'm obviously not really anything, but my cycling volume is tiny now)


Did you get RER data?

Was this step test to exhaustion or continuous step test?

Ear lobe or finger for the lacate?

In fact, do you have the report???
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Was this step test to exhaustion or continuous step test?

Ear lobe or finger for the lacate?

In fact, do you have the report???


Ear, 1 minute ramp, ~10-11 minutes overall, report binned/not created Smile as I said it was just practicing the actual test mechanics, might do another one soon if there's so much interest in it!
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Was this step test to exhaustion or continuous step test?

Ear lobe or finger for the lacate?

In fact, do you have the report???


Ear, 1 minute ramp, ~10-11 minutes overall, report binned/not created Smile as I said it was just practicing the actual test mechanics, might do another one soon if there's so much interest in it!


well you certainly produce surprising results... I have often thought his when reading your comparisons of training and pace etc...

a report would make interesting reading...despite the limitations of testing on a treadmill....and a preference for 3 min steps for greater validity of lactate levels..
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Andy916




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
... lipolytic glycolysis (fats) ...


Did you mean to type aerobic lipolysis (or beta oxidation)? Glycolysis is specifically the breakdown of glucose.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy916 wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
... lipolytic glycolysis (fats) ...


Did you mean to type aerobic lipolysis (or beta oxidation)? Glycolysis is specifically the breakdown of glucose.


thanks - will edit...twas a rushed and badly edited post...
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and........ right on time.....

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/training-in-the-grey-zone-how-to-avoid-the-zone-3-plateau/
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guy in my office posts on Instagram that he does his recovery runs at 7:00/mil pace Rofl
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