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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2397

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: On no Sloggers is off again!! Reply with quote

Honest and to the point question.

Ejc, I value your opinion, but I won't be answering any how I would do it questions on here, from anyone. As I do think that I know how to make this happen and it is potentially quite valuable.


If I was able to devise a way of using remote viewing to set up a 'trap' to identify people who were going to steal from an organisation (it would probably work better with Snowden type theft than stationary cupboard paperclips), and was to offer those services to the big corporate world...

1. Can you see any ethical issues (I am trying to ensure that I haven't missed anything)? Apart from wrongly identifying someone obviously.

2. Do you think that it is a reasonable thing to do?

I am still a fair distance away from commercial saleability, but as ethical issues can tie me up In knots for ages I thought that I would ask for the diverse opinion of people here what you think. (Assume that you believe that this is possible and that big corporates would be interested in identifying people who may be about to steal major stuff from them, if need be).

You can assume that I could show an example of how similar techniques have been used previously.

Take the proverbial if you want, but anyone here whose work involves ethics I would value an objective ethical opinion.
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Catching someone who has committed a crime is one thing. Not sure that identifying someone who is 'going to commit a crime' is likely to end well.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely off base Tony.

While I am not going to give the know how away, I had hoped that the word 'trap' might have covered that. Too cryptic I guess.

Fortunately elsewhere a viewer/viewing project manager who happened iirc to have spent a number of years as a partner in a decent sized law firm, has given me valuable input.

Oh no ex law partner remote views! Aaarrrggghhhh!

Any thoughts on ethics?



To put this into context, and to use a topical example, Snowden. I am sure nowadays the CIA et all are more on top of such things. But imagine back in the day Snowden is about to do his deed. While today data analytics would I imagine be used to identify such behaviour in the CIA et all, this is simply another tool that could potentially 'spot a Snowden' before he does the deed. Clearly you would have to account for errors, chance, false positives etc, and have controls in place to enable 'catching in the act'. Though Snowden is actually a tricky example (I am not explaining why here) but a corporate with specific types of loss is what I am thinking about.


The mechanics aren't really the issue. It's the ethics. Which could stop it in its tracks. But this isn't an accountancy problem, which is why I am asking for broader thoughts.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Stark wrote:

Catching someone who has committed a crime is one thing. Not sure that identifying someone who is 'going to commit a crime' is likely to end well.


surely even plod can observe theft from a stationary cupboard...it's the moving ones that are harder...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tish boom!
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately I have gained what I needed elsewhere. Much more than I expected in fact from people (with professional qualifications no less) who do this sort of stuff for a (at least partial) living.

I just love the academic challenge of it all. It's the simpleton in me.

Anyhow, just wanted to thank you for your restraint in it taking the proverbial. Ejc your joke was funny.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Fortunately I have gained what I needed elsewhere.


Does that mean I can lock the thread then?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yip

While I do value the expertise on here, I can get good advice from professionals (viewers who are also lawyers and artictects) elsewhere, and as my posts here upset some, go for it Jorgan.

While I have gained enormously from all of the constructive help some have given me on here, it is clear that I annoy some, and I don't mean to upset in my enthusiasm.

So I am off to write a paper on how auditing and assurance techniques can be applied to viewers work.

So feel free to lock any or all of my non sports related threads Jorgan. I will only post on matters pertinent to my own training as I get back into mds and tri training.

Final apologies to those here who are upset or irritated by my posts.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was joking; being a bore doesn't warrant censorship Wink
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I was joking; being a bore doesn't warrant censorship Wink
at least I am a cutting edge bore Razz

Seriously though I don't mind you locking it. Life is to short and all that.
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sloggers you are indeed the king of off topic. It's going to be difficult to set an ethical trap. I believe metropolitan police have examples of how not to. Add in a smattering of this thing you call remote viewing and you have something which is as easy to sell to a large company as, say, coal to Newcastle. It's not that I don't wish you luck , but do you have any idea how weird this stuff sounds? Who am I to talk, but perhaps big businesses don't like weird unless there's a billionaire backer a la hyperloop or space x or bezos flying car sort of scenario going on?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fruit thief wrote:
Sloggers you are indeed the king of off topic. It's going to be difficult to set an ethical trap. I believe metropolitan police have examples of how not to. Add in a smattering off, er, remote viewing and you have something which is as easy to sell to a large company as, coal to Newcastle.
fruit thief, I really am done here re this as I get that my enthusiasm is too much for some. However you may be surprised to know that I do sort of agree with you, in part.

Disbelieve in viewing if you want, but it does work, and has worked proveably for decades, as we have discussed previously with the work at Stanford etc. The main problems are:-

1. Reliability, and consistency, which remains a problem, but a narrowing one over time.
2. Usefulness, which is what I have been working hard on.
3. Expectations gaps between what people think and incorrectly assume when they hear the term, and the facts on the ground reality.
4. The wild claims made by some viewers which really don't help.

There are a number of solutions that I have, as you know been developing, which basically take what the US military did successfully and then declassified and combine it with other tools, like maths.

And there are people out there who do take these things seriously, for example my encounters at Oxford uni.

Now all of that said, it is as you note, and hence my question here, ethics that tends to be the real problem.

I could for example probably provide very useful nuggets to the British military contractors, but they would eat me up and spit me out. (Better qualify that probably not to their undoubtedly tight deadlines, and I am way too sensitive for that environment..but you need to be sensitive to view well..I think) I could come up with, no am coming up with solutions to practical problems, but ethics (and ridicule) is always a stumbling block.

I talk about it as it helps me get my mind around it, to find ethical ways of doing it. For example coming up with a way to find certain types of corporate thiefs is not mentally difficult. Doing it legally and probably more relevantly ethically is the problem. In time I hope to find approaches that won't give ethical concerns, and will admit that I am finding my ICAEW retraining invaluable in this regard.

Ultimately though once one organisation finds that I have created an application that works and is making them or saving them significant sums, or otherwise proving itself, selling coals to Newcastle won't be as difficult.

Eg if (and I realise that this is an ambitious if) GCHQ or the NSA are now finding submarines more easily (remember the US military admit to having a team of full time viewers for a decade, some of whom now sell their services publicly) hopefully my alternative approach using a basic level of viewing ability, maths, big data and oceanography to solving the problem identified by The Economist will lead to opportunities in the commercial world.

Ultimately I am simply combining old spy stuff that has been widely used globally with maths, science etc. I even think that I could get it to work with certain technology in time. Which could lead to a certain degree of automation. Boy would I love to get my hands on a quantum computer, some real skilled maths geeks and the like. But half a trillion would also help no end (sorry couldn't help myself).

At the moment I am trying get the viewing community to up their game in terms of objectivity etc.

But I realise that this isn't the forum for it, which is sad given the sheer range of experience on here. Hence my decision to stop bothering you with it.
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have thought it is very difficult to make a serious approach to an organisation offering this type of thing unless you have some sort of credentials such as an MBA, PhD or ongoing formal research in the subject which suggests you have some experience and backing behind you rather than just being a random fruit-cake.
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again what do I know, but perhaps big business is just too normal for this stuff.

Take the 3 biggest UK companies, their operations, and whether they are normal.

1. Royal Dutch Shell, market value 167 billion, drills up oil from the sea, sells it. Messy but normal.
2. HSBC, 127 billion, lends people money, takes deposits and and invests in stuff. Avaricious but normal.
3. British American Tobacco. 98 billion. Sells fags. Carcinogenic but normal.

By the way Sloggers do you ever post in the Fortean Times forums? I had a quick look and figure you might get interesting answers there. Here's a snippet from their snake charming board which made me smile:

Poster 1:
According to my next door neighbour who was in India in the late 40s, you could book entertainment that involved a chap coming into your mess with a cobra and a mongoose and letting them fight to the death. There was a fee, usually raised by whip round, that obviously had to cover the guys profit and the cost of another cobra.

Poster 2:
Or, every once in a while at least, a mongoose, presumably?

Poster 1:
My neighbour did not mention that bit. Maybe you really had to stick around a while to see it.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Stark wrote:
I would have thought it is very difficult to make a serious approach to an organisation offering this type of thing unless you have some sort of credentials such as an MBA, PhD or ongoing formal research in the subject which suggests you have some experience and backing behind you rather than just being a random fruit-cake.


or knew the difference between stationery and stationary perhaps?
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