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FatPom




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Chrace wrote:
There seems to be an assumption that bombing western civilian targets is to harm us directly.

General strategic thought on IS attacks is that it is to show that IS "are strong and can hit anywhere". This shows power, driving recruitment at local regional level, moving towards the desired outcome of a caliphate.



Hear, hear.

Most people have no idea why Al Qaeda or IS exist, but are plenty confident to spout forth how they should be dealt with.

To those people: The audience for these incidents is not who you think it is.


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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
we probably don't have time to wait for anyone's personal saviour to pitch up...today's fundamentalists have more weaponry and reach than any of history's previous fruitcakes...
i was being a tadge silly with that comment Ejc. Even if God did send a messiah, do you really, honestly think that extremists would accept him/her? I mean Jesus isn't recognised by Judaism in the same way Christianity does, and he was a Jew.

The solution is more wisdom in politics, and less externalising bad guys and going for political advantage. Even on that I am obviously not holding my breath.

But to the nitty gritty of the issue. As I understand it, and obviously may be wrong, people who get converted to any sort of extremism tend to be a bit lost in society. If that is accurate the solution is to make sure (and I am sounding like a Tory here) that society works for everyone. Really works for everyone. And that is a tough challenge. But doable, and doable to the benefit of all. But it will take politicians who are not under the thumb of interest groups, who are not yes men sheep, and who have a genuinely wide ranging skill set of life experiences. Again however that is a medium term solution.

In the short term you need good intelligence, calm, and a sensitive hand to help those who are lost find a better way. The government nudge unit possibly? This would help cut of the supply of recruits to the fanatical extremists. You also need the religious communities to be able to talk freely and openly about eg the real meaning of jihad (personal self improvement fighting the battles of good and bad within, making yourself a better person) so that potential recruits are more aware.

While this is a global phenomenon, if you look at the big picture, it has been caused in part by politicians hence the ultimate solution really is better politics.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe what bonds most fundamentalists is a belief in the fundamentals of their theology/ideology.....but it also depends on which fundamentals they believe in, because different beliefs have different potential consequences.

There is also a tendency for a lack of critical thinking, and for similar motives which is why offering more of what they are not asking for only briefly stems the problem. This is why it is really important to listen to what they are saying rather than making up your own ideas as to the cause which time and again proves to be counter productive.

Kissinger is the unintentional designer of much of the current drama and he was only a politician by default.

Of course the Jews didn't accept Jesus...isn't that the whole point?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
i believe what bonds most fundamentalists is a belief in the fundamentals of their theology/ideology.....but it also depends on which fundamentals they believe in, because different beliefs have different potential consequences.

There is also a tendency for a lack of critical thinking, and for similar motives which is why offering more of what they are not asking for only briefly stems the problem. This is why it is really important to listen to what they are saying rather than making up your own ideas as to the cause which time and again proves to be counter productive.

Kissinger is the unintentional designer of much of the current drama and he was only a politician by default.

Of course the Jews didn't accept Jesus...isn't that the whole point?
I do listen to what "they" are saying, have done for years. For example immediately prior to this I have just watched a YouTube video about Scientology.

There is a distinction between:-

1. What the top guys in any religion say
2. How that is interpreted by those who follow and recruit
3. What motivates people to join
4. What motivates people to eg become a suicide bomber. It's not just what is being offered, it is also I suspect, about circumstance. Whether being in a lonely isolated place in society or in a prison with no real obvious options etc.

Tell me Ejc, if you were el high hied yin, how would you tackle it? You know my solutions what are yours?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freedom of speech - to include the right to debate all ideas

emancipation of women

global access to clean drinking water/medicine

localised sustainability - power, food, education
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Tony Stark




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Stark wrote:
So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?


in part, absolutely, but you will not get a resolution to that because the parties of god have a veto on it...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
freedom of speech - to include the right to debate all ideas

emancipation of women

global access to clean drinking water/medicine

localised sustainability - power, food, education
cant argue with any of that!
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Stark wrote:
So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?


No, it's not
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That issue is more complex than it may seem.

1. You have the perspectives of politicians and their voters.
2. You have various religious perspectives.
3. You have various esoteric and legend perspectives (think eg Stargate Gids being aliens landing there)
4. You have the perspective of God/The Gods you undoubtedly have an opinion.
5. You have the opinions of citizens and groups on the ground.
6. Add to that you have the politics of the region.

Quite a muddle.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Tony Stark wrote:
So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?


No, it's not


does that mean they are killing themselves unnecessarily?

who would have thought...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the issues in the Middle East is that the borders were largely drawn up by the British, however the tribal 'areas' did not align with the borders we decided to impose.

A trive or sect may reside in a particular area, and all its neighbours agree that it is there area, however when a border runs through the middle and a remote capital bureaucracy tells them they cannot live in their own lands but must stay on one side or another, things tend to kick off.

Try and think of the region more as Sunni and Shia and ignore the borders we draw - ask them where they think the borders should be and let them decide.

e.g. the Kuwait-Saudi neutral zone which people know very little about as its not on Google Maps. But ask a Saudi ....... and they may well kick off about interference from the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi%E2%80%93Kuwaiti_neutral_zone
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
One of the issues in the Middle East is that the borders were largely drawn up by the British, however the tribal 'areas' did not align with the borders we decided to impose.

A trive or sect may reside in a particular area, and all its neighbours agree that it is there area, however when a border runs through the middle and a remote capital bureaucracy tells them they cannot live in their own lands but must stay on one side or another, things tend to kick off.

Try and think of the region more as Sunni and Shia and ignore the borders we draw - ask them where they think the borders should be and let them decide.

e.g. the Kuwait-Saudi neutral zone which people know very little about as its not on Google Maps. But ask a Saudi ....... and they may well kick off about interference from the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi%E2%80%93Kuwaiti_neutral_zone


the trouble is, some of those areas - west bank etc - have such a chequered history of 'ownership' that no one really has a greater claim over another...but yes, the Brits did fek up badly with the borders all over the region...

Letting the Sunni and Shia decide is simply a recipe for more innocent killing and..as we are currently observing, the region is definitely a 'last man standing' zone...

the other problem is that there are other 'groups' such as lebanese and palestinian christians and races such as the kurds and the jews, all across the region. In some cases they are innocently caught up in the trouble and in others they are co contributors...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Tony Stark wrote:
So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?


No, it's not


Depends. It contributes hugely to the general 'situation' in the ME, as does the 'proxy' action by nation states like Iran and Saudi in the region, based on their predominant religious denomination.

I presume you're saying habitation disputes have nothing to do with pure acts of terror or ISIS?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Tony Stark wrote:
So no-one thinks it is anything to do with who has the perceived right to reside in certain patches of the Middle-East then?


No, it's not


Depends. It contributes hugely to the general 'situation' in the ME, as does the proxy-action by nation states like Iran and Saudi in the region, based on their predominant religious denomination.

I presume you're saying habitation disputes have nothing to do with pure acts of terror or ISIS?
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