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In a democracy, a nation gets the Government it deserves.
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Gus




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:52 am    Post subject: In a democracy, a nation gets the Government it deserves. Reply with quote

Just sayin'.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are pissed at what the Torys have done in power.

Now hopefully we end up with wiser government (once the short term mess is worked through).

Assuming that the Torys stay in power, whoever replaces May hopefully will have the wisdom to realise that they have hurt a lot of people, placing people in impossible situations, making people homeless, Food banks etc, Others don't want a hard Brexit. more importantly I just hope that they have the wisdom to realise that they need to learn from their mistakes and do a heck of a lot better, for everyone, including the chronically ill and disabled and jobseekers who have been hounded on mass and many of whom truly live in fear and have done so for years now.

The darkness must end and who ever takes over from May, or even Corbyn if he can pull it of, really must turn on the light switch.

I mean just look at Advance en marche in France from nothing, president and now possibly likely, from nothing in a single year to gain a majority. It's similar forces at work here. Another election in six months time could wipe the Torys out if they don't heal a lot of wounds fast.


Having walked myself out of darkness twenty years ago when my life collapsed around me I do know what I am talking about.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can think of dozens of countries that make the UK a shining light of positively...i have never really understood the British, with some honourable exceptions, life is pretty good here and, with a little work, could be better still...

The British...never bl00dy satisfied Smile
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
People are pissed at what the Torys have done in power..


Nah..... all it says is that there are still millions of people who despite voting for free money from other people, supporting a terrorist sympathiser and a Marxist idealogue who would destroy the UK industrial base, that there are still more people with common sense who understand the UK is living beyond its means and that the economic of Labour policy simply doesnt add up, and the Tories have the job os sorting out the sh*t that labour created.

Despite the biggest promises for free money for everyone, with no way to pay the money back, more people saw through Labour lies. Corbyn looks like he's won - he came second and none of his promises will come to fruition and he'll just got back to being as ineffective as ever.

Governments are not there to avoid doing the right thing - and sometimes that means some people will get less free money from others, and might have to accept the free ride is over. And restrictions on benefits still remain highly popular with all voters so no, there wont be even more money handed to the non-earners.

There is no money to pay the electricity bill - you really dont get it do you ?

The funny bit will be the howl from all the snowflakes who did the right thing and voted, and found that they didnt win, and so no, they wont be getting more money from other people.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO

I say this with a lot of caution, as I am well aware of how printing money can truly wreck economies, but:-

1. Enough money has been created without a problem for bankers.
2. The way printing money has been done in many advanced economies has been successful, as opposed to hyper inflationary.

Government finances don't work the same way as your or mine do.

Now that all said, get too carried away and eeek!

Ultimately forcing people to food banks and onto the streets, sometimes through absolutely no fault of their own, thinking of government non target targets here, is simply wrong.

I wrote to our government when austerity started explaining how making people live in fear in bad. Time has proven me correct. People are living in fear.

You think that is acceptable GrahamO, I don't.

But it would be a glum world if we agreed on everything, or anything!
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Tony Stark




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
......with a little work, could be better still...


There's your problem.....

Wee Jimmy Krankie is being awfully quiet this morning. I think she has shot her bolt. A coalition in exchange for another referendum isn't going to work.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. There is no austerity. We still spend vastly more than we can take in taxes. Being told you can only have two doughnuts instead of five, paid for on a credit card which you have no way of repaying, isnt austerity. If you tax people too much, they leave and take industry with them.

2. There are always people who live in fear - some founded, some unfounded. There are more people on the edge who would fall into poverty if taxes rose, yet you expect to keep handing out more and more tax money to non-earners and 'stop austerity'. Go look at Greece as a great example if you don't match income and expenditure at a national level.

The UK is increasing dependent upon a smaller percentage of taxpayers and companies - go read Atlas Shrugged as thats the direction we are heading even if you dont like the authors politics.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have always wondered why instead of food banks there aren't cigarette banks or Sky tv banks or fuel banks or clothes banks or phone top up banks...or today, tattoo banks...

I appreciate people fall on hard times - i've been out of work myself and life can be tough...but i am still not convinced that this country is in that difficult a position...
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Jgav




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FFS, although I dislike May and what her government was doing, I dislike Corbyn and his cronies even more but what I dislike the most is unpredictability. A weak minority government is nearly the worst result all round.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO, not being able to pay your rent or buy food is not twaddle. Neither is fear that you will loose all income and end up homeless because of a government admin screw up (Seen such screw ups first hand) or because a doctor or admin clerk has targets to meet (doctors have resigned over being forced to do this). I mean people have allegedly (I say allegedly as it is second hand knowledge) been declared fit for work while dying in hospital.

GrahamO, I happen to have had the foresight and the courage of my convictions to publicly point this out to our government back in 2010ish when they introduced it.

I just value a caring, socially stable society, over one where egos, greed (though I give you that cuts both ways), ideology, results in suicides, living in fear, and it could also be said contributes to disenchantment and the enabling of radicalisation. (though that is obviously a much more complex topic).

To me it is a simple matter of getting the balance right.

just my opinion but where we are today is not the right balance. You may agree with that but for different reasons! The people of Britain seem to agree that the current balance is not correct.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jgav wrote:
FFS, although I dislike May and what her government was doing, I dislike Corbyn and his cronies even more but what I dislike the most is unpredictability. A weak minority government is nearly the worst result all round.


yep...
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the really negative we'll be doing all this again in 12-18 months. Brexit will be impossible; the Euro 27 know they can play hard ball and May has no Parliamentary majority and will have lost even authority over her own MP's due to this self inflicted catastrophe. She can't last.

Whoever takes over will....need to seek their own mandate; I think Labour will win it with an energised youth vote and their 'free beer and pet unicorns for all' offer - which will only get more extreme, whereas the rest of us will be getting voting fatigue....
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This went to a couple of Tory MPs and public back in 2010.

Pasting has destroyed formatting.



Hello

I used to be a member of the young conservatives a couple of decades ago until I resigned in disgust at the behaviour of members at a conference where they rioted and wrecked the place. It made the TV news. I sent my resignation to Maggie Thatcher and got a considered response. Since then I have had little to do with the party, became a floating voter and settled down with the Lib Dems and am now floating again. I am also being hurt by your policies, though I do agree with you that things need to change, I just think that you have gone about it the wrong way and too quickly, for the social fabric of this nation to comfortably accommodate. I also can’t help but wonder if your colleagues in cabinet include people who forced my resignation all those years ago.

Anyhow all I know about you is what I read on order-order, the Guido blog.

If you read that blog you will know my views, but if not here they are. For perspective I worked my way out of a broken home on a council estate into the global professions (Price Waterhouse), before running my own business and then becoming a carer for my chronically ill and disabled wife, while bringing up my young children. Now that the kids have grown up I have been trying to earn a bit of a living for a few years now, and know first hand how unwieldy the benefit system is and how it often doesn’t work as it should. Hence I agree in concept with what you are trying to do, even if I am horrified at how you are going about reforming it. I really don’t think your party realises or worse really cares about how you are destroying lives in your attempts to provide opportunity.

Anyhow:-
You can’t govern a nation with a narrow set of life skills in government, you really must widen your experience base to understand the motivators of the unemployed etc. One size does not fit all in Europe and how millionaires think and motivate is equally not necessarily applicable to all segments of society.
You really must stop marginalising people by talking about “hard working decent people” – many people would love to be hard working yet they are not somehow undecent; and “strivers v shirkers” is not much better. Such marginalisation of the vulnerable is straight out of 1930s German history. It is wrong. The press develop it and hatred is spurned in peoples hearts. And that is disastrous. Yet you are doing it.

You need a much better grip on the social levers of society and you will only get that by dramatically widening your knowledge and understanding base of this nation.

You can’t turn an evolved stable nation like ours on its head without fracturing it. You may only have a 5 year timescale between elections, but that is no excuse for naively thinking that you can turn history on its head and rejuvenate overnight. I can only assume that your party thought that a global economic recovery would save the day.

On a practical level, for every person that commits suicide or dies or gets depressed or ill or gives up on life due to your reforms, that puts more financial pressure on the nhs. And also on the police dealing with those who turn to crime to make ends meet. Yet the police are running on a shoestring so your policies are effectively motivating people to crime while weakening the police to be able to stop it. You are doing this.

Equally not only have you harmed a section of the voting public, there is also the immediate and extended families to consider. All of whom vote. Hurt a man, and more a woman, in the pocket/purse and it will cost you dear come election time. Remember most of your cuts have yet to bite but will be doing so this year, leaving a very large number of people, and their families, really struggling come election time, all with an axe to grind, when they remember the good old days under labour (regardless of whose fault it is) compared to now/2015 with suicide/illness/crime/bailiffs/being spat at in the street/self worth going down for being considered a skiver etc etc. I am not sure how you could have got this so wrong. Ah yes I do, a grab for power followed by 19th century economics in the 21st century.

Plenty of people, in the professions, told you you were erring right from the start, now international observers are agreeing and more are exposing the harsh realities of your policies (thinking Panorama etc – “toxic”). Yet you plod on. Get over your egos, accept that you have failed and start to put things right. It matters to this nation and to people like me.

There were alternatives. For example you could have used the QE money to pay debt and interest thereon for a few years meaning that your budget would be pretty well balanced at a stroke. Cuts could therefore have been better implemented while you would have cash to invest in the real economy. Its not rocket science. But no you chose to work on yields to keep a credit rating you have now lost and which might enable you to have a debt haircut without upsetting overseas investors. But if you have used the money to invest in jobs and in the real economy in the first place…..yes people could be moved off benefits into decent paying jobs, reducing the welfare bill while increasing tax revenues and economic spending/activity. But no you knew better and I am paying the price.

Just now you blame labour and Europe, well the next government is going to have to sort out your mess which is worse as it is hard to see how labour motivated people to crime, how they added extra strain to the nhs and how they caused people to think of suicide and improvised many families. And as I explained above this was all avoidable. But you did it.

So can I ask that if you want to heal the harm you have done to the social fabric of this nation, and win the next election that you sort yourself out fast. You have two routes:-

To sink ever deeper into darkness and continue the policies of Germany in the 1930s re marginalising and socially excluding people. This has (admittedly with the help of the press) resulted in growing visible negative attitudes out there in the real world. You could win the election on such a strategy but as Germany found it is unsustainable and the party would probably ultimately never recover, though it might win the next election. But such darkness is doomed to failure so please stop it and not continue it.

You could get people with direct experience of all sectors of society in the cabinet, find some way of admitting to the public that you have screwed up (that would be doable perhaps explaining that you had expected an economic recovery to offer jobs) while using QE the way I had mentioned. Stop your welfare changes, they are far too harsh, there are better ways of getting the system to work better at lower cost while motivating people back to work.

The conservative party is the only political party I have ever been a paying member off and quite frankly I am saddened at what you have done to this nation. It will most likely take decades to fully heal the fracturing you have caused in your misguided efforts to turn this nation around. The nation does need turned around but if you read MI5s website definition of terrorism and then reflect upon how your policies have affected hundreds of thousands of people, it does offer pause for thought. Clearly you are not terrorists you are the government but the effects of your policies do seem to fall into your own governments definition of terrorism. Pause for thought.

Go on make me want to not only vote again, but to even reconsider rejoining your party. As a lad from a council estate who once made good before life got in the way inspire me.

Best wishes
Stewart

Note for international readers this is about the United Kingdom written by a British citizen to a Conservative MP [part of our coalition government].
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Whisk




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Despite the biggest promises for free money for everyone, with no way to pay the money back, more people saw through Labour lies. Corbyn looks like he's won - he came second and none of his promises will come to fruition and he'll just got back to being as ineffective as ever.



I think that's the key point here - Theresa May has lost in that she gambled on a snap election to strengthen her position, ran a truly terrible campaign and has ended up in a much worse position than she was before, dependent on the Ulster Unionists to help her form a government.

Labour have done much better than predicted and have strengthened their position, but they're still a very long way off being able to form a government without the help of every other minority party.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
On the really negative we'll be doing all this again in 12-18 months. Brexit will be impossible; the Euro 27 know they can play hard ball and May has no Parliamentary majority and will have lost even authority over her own MP's due to this self inflicted catastrophe. She can't last.

Whoever takes over will....need to seek their own mandate; I think Labour will win it with an energised youth vote and their 'free beer and pet unicorns for all' offer - which will only get more extreme, whereas the rest of us will be getting voting fatigue....


without the marxist/pro terrorist at the helm I could cope with that...the youth could then vote in for free everything and then spend the rest of their lives paying for it...
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