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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whisk wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Corbyn has just strode into the kitchen and said "what a mess, I will sort this out". And while he isn't head Chef he knows he can do something to help. It's called leadership.



I'd disagree on that point - he's trying to turn the heat up even more so that the whole kitchen blows up Rolling Eyes . Whipping up unrest in the population and encouraging people to take to the streets to protest is an attempt to undermine the democratic process.

We've just had an election, the result wasn't particularly satisfactory and doesn't suit a lot of people, but it is what it is. Just like the Brexit vote, when nearly half the electorate voted out and we had protest marches after the event by people who wanted to reverse the decision.

Going to see the survivors of the fire immediately after is a thankless task for anyone in power when there's a mob baying for the blood of whoever was "responsible". Just look at the reception that Sadiq Khan got. If Theresa May had gone to the relief centre she would have had to face an angry mob and she would have been all over the news being abused by people.

Corbyn on the other hand gets to turn up, make sympathetic noises, blame it all on Tory spending cuts and tell everyone that they should be requisitioning all the empty private houses in Kensington and filling them with the displaced families.
Interesting perspective Whisk. Let me reflect upon it.

Corbyn may be extreme left wing, but I just don't feel the Labour Party's energy as being that extreme. A letter in this weeks Economist notes that the party's policies are broadly free market with obviously notable exceptions.

I don't know what you would have done Whisk, but if I was May, I would have stepped forward, let them scream and shout at me, listen, and then when the energy subsided a bit, talked to them. After all they may have a valid point, cost cutting and red tape removal may have enabled the fire, we don't yet know.

Being a leader means taking the rough with the smooth, if you only want fancy teas and ego boosting yes men around you, well to me that isn't real leadership. Leadership is about getting your hands dirty, and importantly 'being there' when you are most needed, as well as guiding, making the best decisions you can etc.

While other things being equal, I would have preferred to vote for May than Corbyn before she blew it a couple of weeks before the vote, I do genuinely think that Corbyn just now is showing far better leadership, setting aside for this point his policies obviously.

You want to be top dog, the buck stops with you, and in a tragedy you simply have to face those who are understandably angry. She didn't. The mayor did and good on him.
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Last edited by SloggingScotsman on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
any fool can see that there's a problem; any fool can cause unrest; leadership is identifying and administering appropriate solutions not just pointing fingers...
after Mays presidential election performance do you think that she has shown leadership through administering appropriate solutions Ejc?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boring, can't we just talk about triathlon?

Face it, TM lacks a basic empathy as a result of her incredibly self-focussed lifestyle.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

may is in a sh1tty position, part self inflicted, part imposed...

my posts have not supported her beyond being the person who stepped up to the plate and are not necessarily a sanction of what she does.

corbyn is a supporter of Hamas and can be called a friend of the IRA. Whilst bringing both into the mainstream may be of benefit to all, it has to be at the price of giving up their stated claims. Oddly enough, i don't approve of killing children in particular which i consider particularly odious.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:


Corbyn is a supporter of Hamas and can be called a friend of the IRA. Whilst bringing both into the mainstream may be of benefit to all, it has to be at the price of giving up their stated claims.
i have no idea if he is or isn't, whether it is true or character assassination propaganda. Either way in matters little in the wider context.

How was the IRA situation resolved, by throwing punches or by holding a hand out in friendship?

Hamas, are I think going through a period of change, iirc from the Economist, and that whole regional situation is obviously complex. Ultimately though as with the IRA the solution is likely to come through holding out a hand of friendship.

The only way to properly debate claims is to be mature and open about it. By engaging both sides can reflect on the other mans position. I mean just look at what has happened on here with me! Everyone has different sets of life experiences and in my opinion is is unreasonable to expect anyone to give up their beliefs before you openly discuss them. I mean would you give up your beliefs before you could get to place where resultion is possible?

The key is to listen, learn, understand, reflect, and most importantly...to inspire and touch hearts. That resolves problems.

Get egos, power plays, greed, out of the way, so that grief can be worked through to a better further, for everyone.
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

News today in the Graun: Laughing

Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn will appear at this year’s Glastonbury, speaking to crowds from the main Pyramid stage on the Saturday afternoon of the festival.

He will be led on stage by 81-year-old festival founder Michael Eavis. “We’re Corbyn fans, that’s the thing,” Eavis told the Guardian at the Glastonbury site this week. “He’s got something new and precious, and people are excited about it. He really is the hero of the hour.”
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

Four billion, jeepers my whole half trillion will be gone at this rate!
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Stark wrote:
News today in the Graun: Laughing

Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn will appear at this year’s Glastonbury, speaking to crowds from the main Pyramid stage on the Saturday afternoon of the festival.

He will be led on stage by 81-year-old festival founder Michael Eavis. “We’re Corbyn fans, that’s the thing,” Eavis told the Guardian at the Glastonbury site this week. “He’s got something new and precious, and people are excited about it. He really is the hero of the hour.”


Well, God forbid he ever gets in, I suppose each generation has to re-learn the mistakes of the past.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People had to stop killing for the peace process to come about, not the other way around...
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
People had to stop killing for the peace process to come about, not the other way around...


The IRA command was infiltrated top to bottom and they knew their time was at an end so sued for peace.

Corbyn would have tipped them off had he been in power.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
People had to stop killing for the peace process to come about, not the other way around...


The IRA command was infiltrated top to bottom and they knew their time was at an end so sued for peace.

Corbyn would have tipped them off had he been in power.


Indeed. But that compromise didn't come from the hand of peace. They weren't listening.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
People had to stop killing for the peace process to come about, not the other way around...


The IRA command was infiltrated top to bottom and they knew their time was at an end so sued for peace.

Corbyn would have tipped them off had he been in power.


Indeed. But that compromise didn't come from the hand of peace. They weren't listening.
then instead of us allegedly torturing them (there is a book on it, the coppers who tortured now take tablets to help them cope with their guilt) perhaps a more kind approach would have sped things up?

After all we now know how Gitmo drone strikes etc has motivated people.


Don't get me wrong I am not a total imbicile, only partially!

It was a terribly difficult situation but, and without meaning any disrespect whatsoever to our boys, but look how Bloody Sunday motivated people.

Violence begets violence.

Yes peace can take years, and yes you need to protect your country, and yes peace takes time, and yes they did terrible things to us, as we did to them, but peace is the way.

GrahamO, EJC, if I walk up to you and thump you what is your likely instinctive reaction? Now if you walk up to me and thump me, if I ask you why you have thumped me and get you talking what is the likely eventual outcome?

That all said different time, tough conditions on the ground. Both sides on edge and motivated.

There is a lot to be said about what you learn in the dojo. If you need to defend, be decisive, but controlled.

I always like the story of Jimmy Boyle, the prison service allegedly tried to kill him back in the day, but he only calmed down once he was put in the special unit and treated with genuine respect.

Mutual respect, honesty, and dialogue go a long way. As time has proven.
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm becoming pretty appalled at what's going on in London at the moment in the fire fall-out.

Hard left militants are now enjoying whipping up the angry mob, inciting riots and politicising the whole tragedy. Mobs are now marching on every target demanding 'Tories out' and 'May out' (who's only been PM for 11 months). This clearly isn't about the 'fire', it's about blatant opportunism to stoke anti-Government protests.

It's akin to how the hard left, Trotskyists, Leninists, Marxists and all the other hard-left revolutionaries have always operated throughout history, trying to incite insurrection in society. They thrive on promoting anarchy through teams of agent provocateurs taking advantage of people's anger and the need to find a target for blame in situations like this to further their own nasty political agenda.

One of the current crop of agent provocateur has been identified as a hard-left activist (and Corbyn supporter) once arrested for terrorism offences, who's organised one of the latest anti-May protests in Kensington under the guise of the fire tragedy.

Those who voted 'anything but Tory' should understand this is what they've voted for. These hard-left militants now believe they have a popular mandate because of Corbyn's success. The hard-left trade unionists who thrive on militancy, strikes and bringing down industry are on the rise because of you. If you voted Corbyn, then you'd better admit you're happy to see more and more of this, because that's what you've voted for.

I just find it disgusting.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
If you voted Corbyn, then you'd better admit you're happy to see more and more of this, because that's what you've voted for.

I just find it disgusting.
i also find it disgusting Gus.

However while I do agree with you, I am going to take you to task a little.

1. I voted for Labour because I felt that I had to vote for someone. I was probably backing May, until as discussed before, she completely blew it with me due to 'war on terror' a couple of weeks before the election. That left me with libdems who I don't yet trust with my vote again, the greens who have little practical chance to make a difference (sadly), and labour. Mind you in my seat a labour vote is only a protest vote as it is very blue.

2. In no way supporting extremism Gus, and in no way justifying the actions you describe, but this country has millions of people who have been royally screwed by the Tories, and that frustration and anger has been building up. Homelessness, food banks, being told that you are not 'decent' if you are not hard working yet can't get a job, loosing everything because of an admin cock up or because of a target that some manager has to meet. As I explained before now that the pot has cracked that energy is coming out, and sadly the Torys seem ill equipped to deal with it. Millions however are probably of the opinion that the fear that the Torys have driven into the hearts of ordinary folk must stop. With most of us who have been hurt by the Torys the frustration is there. It's human nature and understandable. Had the Torys from Cameron onwards projected less fear in to the hearts (as I warned about back in 2010 ?) of people, this backlash would have far less momentum. But I was ignored. Hence this is partially you sow the seeds you reap the harvest. It's basic esoterics. That said it is wrong, but understandable. I just hope that our government shows wisdom in healing the wounds (e.g. The £5m forthcoming help, doesn't really help, the help was needed on the night, politicking doesn't help, being there and helping those in need does....but the Torys continually struggle with that). Sadly.

Good politicians must be able to feel the pulse of the nation, show wisdom, and inspire people's hearts.

Unless our politicians are skilled esotericists they may struggle to manage the current energy backlash, but sadly it is fuelled by what has been sown.

I, as you know, had hoped that the cracks could be filled and that it wouldn't snowball, but I am beginning to think that perhaps it might be too late. If so you can expect the next elected government to be Labour and remain so for a decade plus. Would not have happened if the Torys hadn't screwed so many so badly. But what the heck do I know.

Sadly about the only Tory politician who I can currently see who might be able to save the Torys skin is Ruth from Scotland, but not being a Westminster MP she can't be PM.

Hopefully the next time I tell the Torys that their policies are going to do great harm they will listen. But I doubt it.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus you've gone back into drivel mode again. You must learn to stop it.

1. The Left lost - get that clear, so any nonsense about people not being listened to is plain wrong. The MAJORITY did not vote for labour. Labour minorities were listened to and adjudged wrong and its the kind of blethering that you put out that creates a sense of self-entitlement in minorities.

2. More people are better off under the Tories. FACT. No government can make everyone happy and at the moment we have a vocal minority trying to overcome an elected government. Stop putting out the BS about 'projecting fear' - some people will never be happy. Its the snowflakes being told they cannot have unlimited resources from other peoples taxes and replying that nobody listens to them. And its not the role of a government to pander to the minority extremist voters who lost and who want other peoples earnings.

3. Going after the Tories for the fire is utterly pathetic. If Corbyn had won a couple of weeks ago, the rioters wouldnt have gone after Corbyn would they ? Its just another bunch of left-wing losers jumping on the bandwagon of a terrible situation, trying to overturn an elected government, in the hope they get cash.

4. I'd bet money that at the end of the enquiry, the cladding was 100% compliant with the laws and regulations at the time the work was done, the company will be found fully innocent but that wont be enough for the rioters because they have decide who is guilty already. And the left wont be going after the poor sod in the public sector who wrote the spec because he's a public sector worker and therefore infallible.

Look at the footage of the people - its 72 hours or so since the event and they expect hundreds of houses to miraculously appear in the nearby location for them to walk into. They expect a public enquiry done overnight and they have already decided who is at fault. Its not justice or logic and not much different from ignorant villagers with pitchforks.

The old adage about 'Keep Calm and Carry On' doesnt apply here because you can take one look at the people involved in the riots and tell there isnt much British in their background. They've brought third world over-reactions to the UK with them.

You do support extremism because you support the view that there is a bottomless pit of cash and that nobody must ever be refused, that governments have to pander to minority demands and you would consider voting for a guy who would steal peoples properties.

Go have a long rest, and stop posting drivel for a week please.
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