Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Power meters and racing Ironman
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> General
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1302

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
I think you really need to look at your outdoor FTP

You can't sustain 140% ftp uphill for long, 2/3mins max, the fact you say you can means your ftp is wrong.

This. As I also said above.

Based on your estimated time of c7hrs, the training peaks table says you should actually be well under 0.67 IF. That's only for "strong, proven IM runners" after 6.30 on the bike. But its all meaningless if your starting point for IF isn't correct. Have you done what I suggested on Golden Cheetah?

Regardless, your point about "i'm a rubbish runner anyway" leads to another point. Ultimately you're racing for "fun", so do whatever will give you most enjoyment. If taking it super steady on the bike will leave you bored, versus getting more enjoyment from hitting the bike harder and having to walk most of the marathon, go for it. All of this data and analysis is attempting to predict the best overall swim-bike-run time, but if a few minutes here or there overall doesnt really mean much to you versus enjoying the bike ride more by going a bit faster, that's fine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2246
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
I think you really need to look at your outdoor FTP

You can't sustain 140% ftp uphill for long, 2/3mins max, the fact you say you can means your ftp is wrong.


I train power indoor (virtual) but race on feel because I think its best (and nothing to do with me being too tight to buy a PM...honest Wink )


Ha ha, yes - the point of PM is guidance and thereby confidence, I think I'm getting the opposite!

Just put in the numbers and weather for Exmoor into BestBikeSplit, I know it's not an exact science but apparently I'd need to have done 53% effort to get my appaling 4:12 bike split.

Maybe my power display/my interpretation of the power display ruined my race time.

I've got time for one more outdoor ride with power to sort this out, and get confident.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 853
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
SGreg wrote:
I think you really need to look at your outdoor FTP

You can't sustain 140% ftp uphill for long, 2/3mins max, the fact you say you can means your ftp is wrong.


I train power indoor (virtual) but race on feel because I think its best (and nothing to do with me being too tight to buy a PM...honest Wink )


Ha ha, yes - the point of PM is guidance and thereby confidence, I think I'm getting the opposite!

Just put in the numbers and weather for Exmoor into BestBikeSplit, I know it's not an exact science but apparently I'd need to have done 53% effort to get my appaling 4:12 bike split.

Maybe my power display/my interpretation of the power display ruined my race time.

I've got time for one more outdoor ride with power to sort this out, and get confident.


Consider binning the power off !!! Just have regular metrics on your display!

Plenty of people train by power and race by feel. If you can't get it right I would be tempted to do it off feel. You still have had the advantage of training by power.

Obviously record power for further analysis but consider not riding to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2246
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
SGreg wrote:
I think you really need to look at your outdoor FTP

You can't sustain 140% ftp uphill for long, 2/3mins max, the fact you say you can means your ftp is wrong.

This. As I also said above.

Based on your estimated time of c7hrs, the training peaks table says you should actually be well under 0.67 IF. That's only for "strong, proven IM runners" after 6.30 on the bike. But its all meaningless if your starting point for IF isn't correct. Have you done what I suggested on Golden Cheetah?

Regardless, your point about "i'm a rubbish runner anyway" leads to another point. Ultimately you're racing for "fun", so do whatever will give you most enjoyment. If taking it super steady on the bike will leave you bored, versus getting more enjoyment from hitting the bike harder and having to walk most of the marathon, go for it. All of this data and analysis is attempting to predict the best overall swim-bike-run time, but if a few minutes here or there overall doesnt really mean much to you versus enjoying the bike ride more by going a bit faster, that's fine.


Understood mate, I like discussing the science so I can put it to bed before I get on the course.

Ultimately, my aim is to be quicker than last year. I'd like my bike training and position to get me here a little quicker this year AND so my hips aren't fecked like last year and put in a less mediocre run/walk split.

After all, this is my fun/hobby it's great having a fancy bike and stats to analyse during training, learn about this stuff and physiology too.

I've learned a lot about myself these last three years, not least that I don't have the will to train consistently for six months even if I have the time and sure that will have more effect on my race time that this stuff, but so what?

As long as I cross the finish line I'll be happy, upset with my performance, but happy Wink
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16328
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 1633
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )


I have the opposite problem, very low HR at the start of the run, tricking me into setting out way too hard. I put pace on for the first 2 miles now then switch to HR/feel after that.

The body is a strange thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2246
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )


I have the opposite problem, very low HR at the start of the run, tricking me into setting out way too hard. I put pace on for the first 2 miles now then switch to HR/feel after that.

The body is a strange thing.


I tried having HR with me on sprints and olympics, it was so high the entire time pointless, I had to walk to get down z3! I get the point being made though, but this is what the PM is for, to objectively show how hard I'm going at it regardless of how I feel.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1302

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
PCP wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )


I have the opposite problem, very low HR at the start of the run, tricking me into setting out way too hard. I put pace on for the first 2 miles now then switch to HR/feel after that.

The body is a strange thing.


I tried having HR with me on sprints and olympics, it was so high the entire time pointless, I had to walk to get down z3! I get the point being made though, but this is what the PM is for, to objectively show how hard I'm going at it regardless of how I feel.

But a sprint and oly is basically foot to the pedal for most of the race, so HR will of course be through the roof. Sprint definitely throughout. Oly I'll use power to pace the bike consistently (as its not realistic to do 40k at FTP and expect to have anything left in the tank), but the run will still simply be as hard as I "feel" I can go.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JimboP




Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 3036
Location: SW18

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16328
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimboP wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )


Complete agreement, or you simply forgot to mock me Wink
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16328
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin pot wrote:


I tried having HR with me on sprints and olympics, it was so high the entire time pointless,


Quite, but your thread is about Ironman. The only thing most of us race in an Ironman is the clock.

My point is that whilst PMs are all the rage now, what your engine is doing can still be useful info, even on the bike Smile Even if you can run the whole marathon, how you feel coming out of T2 bears little resemblance to how you feel at mile 10, let alone 20. Hence why a HRM is just as useful as a GPS.

Another useful thing is common sense. If you don't feel like eating on the bike, then you're probably going too hard. This is especially relevant if you're on target watts, but however, you're working harder because it's hot (again see HR).
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2246
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Tin pot wrote:


I tried having HR with me on sprints and olympics, it was so high the entire time pointless,


Quite, but your thread is about Ironman. The only thing most of us race in an Ironman is the clock.

My point is that whilst PMs are all the rage now, what your engine is doing can still be useful info, even on the bike Smile Even if you can run the whole marathon, how you feel coming out of T2 bears little resemblance to how you feel at mile 10, let alone 20. Hence why a HRM is just as useful as a GPS.

Another useful thing is common sense. If you don't feel like eating on the bike, then you're probably going too hard. This is especially relevant if you're on target watts, but however, you're working harder because it's hot (again see HR).


Fair enough, I can check my Hr easily. I don't monitor it religiously but usually only 145-150 on the turbo, only higher than 160 for Vo2max intervals or FTP testing.

Nutrition is a whole other thing, but that's an interesting point I've not heard before. I switched from eating a lot, to eating hardly at all this year after the warnings on here. I assumed that meant I was trying less hard, not too hard?
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1302

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the thing on nutrition is two fold.

My understanding of Jorgan's main point is that if you are working at too high an intensity, your body simply can't process food/nutrition, and you also wont want to take it on because of that.

The point in another thread around the amount of nutrition you were taking on was more to do with how much you were using in training. That appeared overly excessive. In a race, you need to take stuff on because you still have a marathon to run, which is not the case during a 2hr standalone turbo session. Maybe more of a mix between solids and gels compared to the quantity of gels you said you had been using, but you do need to get stuff in you. There are generic tables about how much your body tends to be able to absorb per hour to try and gauge what you should try and be ingesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2246
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
I think the thing on nutrition is two fold.

My understanding of Jorgan's main point is that if you are working at too high an intensity, your body simply can't process food/nutrition, and you also wont want to take it on because of that.

The point in another thread around the amount of nutrition you were taking on was more to do with how much you were using in training. That appeared overly excessive. In a race, you need to take stuff on because you still have a marathon to run, which is not the case during a 2hr standalone turbo session. Maybe more of a mix between solids and gels compared to the quantity of gels you said you had been using, but you do need to get stuff in you. There are generic tables about how much your body tends to be able to absorb per hour to try and gauge what you should try and be ingesting.


Understood.

I can't find anywhere saying how many cals or carbs in the on course provided powerbar drinks. I know they're not full either. I'd plan to eat a half bar (100 clas) and drink one energy bottle per station, so roughly per hour. I think 200cal is the rough target for a 155W 6.5hr ride.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JimboP




Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 3036
Location: SW18

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
JimboP wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
I know this is rather old fashioned, but you might want to keep an eye on your HR on the hills too. Plus in particular, when you start the run; you might be fooled into thinking you feel fine, but you won't last long if you're clipping-off the kms in upper Z3 (if I say this enough, I might take my own advice too Rolling Eyes )


Complete agreement, or you simply forgot to mock me Wink


lol. I started but didn't finish Wink
I agree. In fact, I've had my best IM races without a power meter or even a heartrate monitor. Useful to stop you burying yourself in a hole during the first 90-120mins though when all and sundry are powering off into the distance
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> General All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.