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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 250
Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Back to run training after knee injury Reply with quote

Today was my first run since 23 May, when I sustained a knee injury. I have now been off running for 7 weeks and am starting a very gentle program to build up again

Started today with 2km, running 100m then walking 100m, now I have a day off and will run again on Saturday, doing 100m run walk for 2.5k, extending by 500m each day until I reach 5km.

When I have got to 5k run/walk, will switch to 200m run 100m walk, extending the run by 100m every other day, until I am doing 500m run 100m walk, then will switch to 5km run

So in around 2.5 weeks I will be running 5km. After this I will extend by 1k every other day until I reach 10k, so now looking 4 weeks out. When I am at 10k I will work on increasing my pace gradually over 2 weeks.

Hopefully by mid August I will be back to normal running, but focusing on IM pace rather than bashing out fast 5k's

Fingers crossed that there are no setbacks
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was the injury?
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quadrilateral Tendonitis, which was causing the knee cap to track incorrectly resulting in patellofemoral pain syndrome.... although diagnosis by Dr and Physio is not 100% certain

Quadrilateral Tendonitis pain went a couple of weeks ago, however, patellofemoral pain is reducing gradually

Luckily, cycling has not been affected. interestingly, swimming did cause pain at first, but has not been an issue for the past 4 or 5 weeks
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Quadrilateral Tendonitis, which was causing the knee cap to track incorrectly resulting in patellofemoral pain syndrome.... although diagnosis by Dr and Physio is not 100% certain

Quadrilateral Tendonitis pain went a couple of weeks ago, however, patellofemoral pain is reducing gradually

Luckily, cycling has not been affected. interestingly, swimming did cause pain at first, but has not been an issue for the past 4 or 5 weeks


Are they agreed on your starting running again now at these sorts of distances?
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:


Are they agreed on your starting running again now at these sorts of distances?


Yes, so long as by the next run there is no pain in my knee and at first, the running sections are really slow, not much faster than a brisk walking pace. Also runs are on grass not on the road

After my first run yesterday, my knee is feeling pretty good.

My aim is to build up to 9min/mile pace (6m/km) which compares with my pre-injury pace of sub 7m/mile
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking for some advice

Now 10 days or into my rehab. I ran 4km today

Each run is slighly longer and slightly faster - I am not pushing to go faster, I am running at a pace that feels about right for my knee.

My Stride length is significantly lower than it was before the injury, I typically run with a stide of 1.2m, currently I am running with a stride of 96cm, so a long way to go.

On my first run my stride was 82cm then 87cm, then 94cm now 96cm so it is gradually getting longer

My pace was 7m/km then 6:34/km then 6:08/km now 5:52/km

My cadence is around 180 as suggested by the physio

Knee does feel sore after run, I am icing and it feels fine after a couple of hours rest

I am really surprised by my heart rate - it seems really high (avg 150) for such a slow run, normally at 5min/km my heart rate would be 145bpm

Does anyone else have any experience of running after a knee injury, if so were your experiences similar to mine
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
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Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly... i would forget about pace, cadence, hr and stride length until you are comfortable running without a reaction again, then slowly build up the distance, pace and frequency.
Personally i would continue to ignore hr, cadence, stride length too... but if you really feel you need to i would only really worry about those details once you are back running unhindered....


Last edited by twhat on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hillwall




Joined: 10 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I return to running after a bit of time off (e.g. a few weeks over Chirstmas), I find my HR is high for gentle stuff. After a week or so back it returns to normal. I don't think it is related to your knee.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
Honestly... i would forget about pace, cadence, hr and stride length until you are comfortable running without a reaction again, then slowly build up the distance, pace and frequency.
Personally i would continue to ignore hr, cadence, stride length too... but if you really feel you need to i would only really worry about those details once you are back running unhindered....


Thanks, I tend to be very analytical and data driven, I am using running data as signs that the injury is recovering - the one I am most interested in is stride length, if I my stride is getting longer, is this an indication that the injury is healing? if my stride stays the same or shortens, is this an indication that I am trying to push too much?
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a really interesting research article where a group of 45 runners increased and decreased their cadence by 10%, but maintained the same running pace of 9:15/mile

running at 10% greater cadence, the centre mass bounce reduced by 20% and the force on the knee reduced by 34% (from 9.2J/KG to 6.1J/KG)

Running at 10% lower cadence increased the centre mass bounce by 23% and the load on the knee increased by 46%.

When you compare the results running with a stride of 112cm (10% lower cadence) the force through the knee is 120% greater than a stride of 92cm (10% higher cadence)

Given that my normal running stride is 120cm+ this suggests that the force through my knee would be massive compared with a running stride of 95cm (that I have at the moment)

Armed with this information, I am going to focus in running with a shorter stride and increased cadence to avoid further injury this summer

http://www.runnersworld.com/peak-performance/aug-24-new-study-reports-that-shorter-strides-can-have-many-benefits
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
I found a really interesting research article where a group of 45 runners increased and decreased their cadence by 10%, but maintained the same running pace of 9:15/mile

running at 10% greater cadence, the centre mass bounce reduced by 20% and the force on the knee reduced by 34% (from 9.2J/KG to 6.1J/KG)

Running at 10% lower cadence increased the centre mass bounce by 23% and the load on the knee increased by 46%.

When you compare the results running with a stride of 112cm (10% lower cadence) the force through the knee is 120% greater than a stride of 92cm (10% higher cadence)

Given that my normal running stride is 120cm+ this suggests that the force through my knee would be massive compared with a running stride of 95cm (that I have at the moment)

Armed with this information, I am going to focus in running with a shorter stride and increased cadence to avoid further injury this summer

http://www.runnersworld.com/peak-performance/aug-24-new-study-reports-that-shorter-strides-can-have-many-benefits


transition carefully...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14691
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Looking for some advice

Now 10 days or into my rehab. I ran 4km today

Each run is slighly longer and slightly faster - I am not pushing to go faster, I am running at a pace that feels about right for my knee.

My Stride length is significantly lower than it was before the injury, I typically run with a stide of 1.2m, currently I am running with a stride of 96cm, so a long way to go.

On my first run my stride was 82cm then 87cm, then 94cm now 96cm so it is gradually getting longer

My pace was 7m/km then 6:34/km then 6:08/km now 5:52/km

My cadence is around 180 as suggested by the physio

Knee does feel sore after run, I am icing and it feels fine after a couple of hours rest

I am really surprised by my heart rate - it seems really high (avg 150) for such a slow run, normally at 5min/km my heart rate would be 145bpm

Does anyone else have any experience of running after a knee injury, if so were your experiences similar to mine


10 days - 4k is too rapid a return...
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 956

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Injured mine in early April and only just starting to feel like I am running ok on it.

Absolute nightmare watching a Winter's hard earned run fitness go down the gurgler, then when you can finally run again finding out how hard it is and unfit you are.

Especially as bike and run fitness are both good, just seems odd that a previously 'easy' pace has me blowing out of backside.

You then have to balance your instincts to smash it too quick trying to get that fitness back ASAP (clock is ticking towards IM Italy) and knowing you need to ease back.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
Injured mine in early April and only just starting to feel like I am running ok on it.

Absolute nightmare watching a Winter's hard earned run fitness go down the gurgler, then when you can finally run again finding out how hard it is and unfit you are.

Especially as bike and run fitness are both good, just seems odd that a previously 'easy' pace has me blowing out of backside.

You then have to balance your instincts to smash it too quick trying to get that fitness back ASAP (clock is ticking towards IM Italy) and knowing you need to ease back.


How long ago did you start to run again, did you have any discomfort at first?

My knee is feeling noticeably better every day, but still feels a long way off being perfect

My goal is just to get to the end of Vichy
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 956

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started running after 6 weeks.

It felt crap, - sore, stiff, weak, odd twinges but not same pain as the injury. Needed to ice after every run, it would still swell up a couple of times a week and I could only run on treadmill (outside was still pretty painful).

About 8 weeks after that I can now run OK on a treadmill - almost pain free and putting the odd effort/gradient in and can run slowly outside which still feels a bit awkward, clunky, stiff but progress from 8 weeks earlier.

Another 8 weeks ish until IM Italy so unless I can ramp things up pretty quick it's going to be a long painful run/walk.....

I have entered Florida which gives another 6/7 weeks to play with.

The smart decision would have been to can this season, take a month completely off, then start a slow slow build into an early start for next season. I'm not smart though....Wink
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