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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1279

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
iwaters wrote:
This is why there was so much hatred towards Gatlin. Not only is he a cheat, but a double cheat who has blamed other people and never admitted his mistakes.

PS - I never stole anything from work. You aint seen me right


Laughing i see nothing

Gatlin i do have a small amount of sympathy for but it's why he only got 4 years for 2nd offence and no actual ban for first. The first was little more than an admin cock up when he was still a junior athlete taking ADHD medication. The second was under suspicious circumstances also but he couldn't prove it 100% . Still think hes a cheat, just not in those two "offences"

Agreed on Gatlin. It's unfair to call him a two time drug cheat. Even the ruling on the first case was clear on that:

AAA Panel wrote:
9. This Panel is very concerned that Mr. Gatlin's reputation not be unnecessarily tarnished as a result of this decision. ... The Panel specifically notes that, in this case, Mr Gatlin neither cheated nor did he intend to cheat. He did not intend to enhance his performance nor, given his medical condition, did his medication in fact enhance his performance. ... The Panel requires that this fact be made clear in any public release describing or relating to this decision.

On the basis of the last part, the BBC are actually in breach of that ruling when they refer to him as a two times drug cheat.

I have no idea whether he has cheated, but he definitely doesnt deserve the reputation he has, especially in the UK. The second offence, as hammerer implies, also had some doubts, and one of the judges expressed an element of belief in his story.

"Gatlin had been tested on 34 other occasions - both before and after the Kansas Relays - and none of those tests had revealed the presence of testosterone. Gatlin claimed that the 2006 test was, therefore, an aberration and must have been caused by sabotage."

It's also worth noting he went over and above in terms of trying to root out the drug culture in athletics.

This was an interesting read, and as I read it after being in the London Stadium for the recent world champs, it made me glad that I hadnt followed the masses and booed him (even though at the time I had been indoctrinated with the "two times drug cheat" label).
http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/demonising-justin-gatlin/
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
iwaters wrote:
doug wrote:
I'm normally against lifetime bans thinking that sometimes people can learn their lesson and reform, but in this case I think an 8 year ban is insufficient.
Perhaps he should get an 8 year ban for each of his 7 failures, let him come back to sport in 56 years (if the drugs haven't killed him by then).


Its hard, people do make mistakes and sometimes it genuinely is an honest mistake and an auto lifetime ban could ruin someones career.


that's the whole point...

there are no honest mistakes in doping...athletes have to start taking responsibility...


I feel there is a world of difference between someone being careless and someone deliberately doping for performance gain. Both should be punished, but the sentences should be different and perhaps the default assumption should be it is deliberate unless shown otherwise.


if someone wants to be careless then choose a career where you can be...we don't accept careless airline pilots, or careless surgeons.... .why accept careless athletes?


I think that's very na´ve!


To be clear, that's based on your views of airline pilots and surgeons not on doping...


how often would you let a surgeon fek up your operation?
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 842
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
iwaters wrote:
doug wrote:
I'm normally against lifetime bans thinking that sometimes people can learn their lesson and reform, but in this case I think an 8 year ban is insufficient.
Perhaps he should get an 8 year ban for each of his 7 failures, let him come back to sport in 56 years (if the drugs haven't killed him by then).


Its hard, people do make mistakes and sometimes it genuinely is an honest mistake and an auto lifetime ban could ruin someones career.


that's the whole point...

there are no honest mistakes in doping...athletes have to start taking responsibility...


I feel there is a world of difference between someone being careless and someone deliberately doping for performance gain. Both should be punished, but the sentences should be different and perhaps the default assumption should be it is deliberate unless shown otherwise.


if someone wants to be careless then choose a career where you can be...we don't accept careless airline pilots, or careless surgeons.... .why accept careless athletes?


I think that's very na´ve!


To be clear, that's based on your views of airline pilots and surgeons not on doping...


how often would you let a surgeon fek up your operation?


You think it doesn't happen? Or do you think they are sacked on the spot for any "mistakes" ?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
iwaters wrote:
doug wrote:
I'm normally against lifetime bans thinking that sometimes people can learn their lesson and reform, but in this case I think an 8 year ban is insufficient.
Perhaps he should get an 8 year ban for each of his 7 failures, let him come back to sport in 56 years (if the drugs haven't killed him by then).


Its hard, people do make mistakes and sometimes it genuinely is an honest mistake and an auto lifetime ban could ruin someones career.


that's the whole point...

there are no honest mistakes in doping...athletes have to start taking responsibility...


I feel there is a world of difference between someone being careless and someone deliberately doping for performance gain. Both should be punished, but the sentences should be different and perhaps the default assumption should be it is deliberate unless shown otherwise.


if someone wants to be careless then choose a career where you can be...we don't accept careless airline pilots, or careless surgeons.... .why accept careless athletes?


I think that's very na´ve!


To be clear, that's based on your views of airline pilots and surgeons not on doping...


how often would you let a surgeon fek up your operation?


You think it doesn't happen? Or do you think they are sacked on the spot for any "mistakes" ?


neither, but there is a tendency within both 'industries' to follow procedure and double check...

in sport there is a lack of personal responsibility until it is too late when they cry foul...so they then get another chance...
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doug




Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 15009
Location: Harrow (Doonhamer in exile)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

neither, but there is a tendency within both 'industries' to follow procedure and double check...


These are safety critical professions where other peoples lives are at stake, and yet mistakes still happen and unless there is gross negligence they don't often end up in life time bans.

explorerJC wrote:
in sport there is a lack of personal responsibility until it is too late when they cry foul...so they then get another chance...


I agree that athletes do need to take more responsibility, there needs to be reasonable procedures put in place for athletes to follow, but any system has to allow for human error, not immediately ban them from their profession for life.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

neither, but there is a tendency within both 'industries' to follow procedure and double check...


These are safety critical professions where other peoples lives are at stake, and yet mistakes still happen and unless there is gross negligence they don't often end up in life time bans.

explorerJC wrote:
in sport there is a lack of personal responsibility until it is too late when they cry foul...so they then get another chance...


I agree that athletes do need to take more responsibility, there needs to be reasonable procedures put in place for athletes to follow, but any system has to allow for human error, not immediately ban them from their profession for life.


sport is a profession where other peoples careers are at stake and yet you aren't giving them a look in...unless of course they take drugs, in which case you welcome them in...
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doug




Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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Location: Harrow (Doonhamer in exile)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

neither, but there is a tendency within both 'industries' to follow procedure and double check...


These are safety critical professions where other peoples lives are at stake, and yet mistakes still happen and unless there is gross negligence they don't often end up in life time bans.

explorerJC wrote:
in sport there is a lack of personal responsibility until it is too late when they cry foul...so they then get another chance...


I agree that athletes do need to take more responsibility, there needs to be reasonable procedures put in place for athletes to follow, but any system has to allow for human error, not immediately ban them from their profession for life.


sport is a profession where other peoples careers are at stake and yet you aren't giving them a look in...unless of course they take drugs, in which case you welcome them in...


I in no way condone drug takers and think athletes should take reasonable safeguards, but realise that no-one is perfect and mistakes will happen, there have been incidences of contaminated supplements, changes in formulations of over the counter medicines. If there was no deliberate intent to cheat, why shouldn't such athletes be allowed to compete after serving a proportionate ban ?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doug wrote:

I in no way condone drug takers and think athletes should take reasonable safeguards, but realise that no-one is perfect and mistakes will happen, there have been incidences of contaminated supplements, changes in formulations of over the counter medicines. If there was no deliberate intent to cheat, why shouldn't such athletes be allowed to compete after serving a proportionate ban ?


because the genuine people who don't make those errors of judgement never get a look in...

doug wrote:


there have been incidences of contaminated supplements,


then don't take supplements

doug wrote:


changes in formulations of over the counter medicines.


then either don't take the medicines or do what any sensible athlete would do and check the product/ingredients and take the necessary action


It really isn't that difficult...
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doug




Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

because the genuine people who don't make those errors of judgement never get a look in...


Eh ? So someone who inadvertently had trace amounts of a banned substance at non-performance dose and didn't ever affect anyone else's race, should forever be assigned to the scrapheap ?

Life must be bleak in such a black and white world.

Or should they be given an appropriate punishment and allowed to return to racing having hopefully learned to be more careful ?

explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doug wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

because the genuine people who don't make those errors of judgement never get a look in...


Eh ? So someone who inadvertently had trace amounts of a banned substance at non-performance dose and didn't ever affect anyone else's race, should forever be assigned to the scrapheap ?

Life must be bleak in such a black and white world.

Or should they be given an appropriate punishment and allowed to return to racing having hopefully learned to be more careful ?

explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.


if you are hoping that they are going to be more careful second time around, why couldn't they have been careful the first time around?

Life is bleak for those who never make the team or the final or the podium when those ahead of them are taking banned substances and being given further opportunities to be selected after any ban
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Tony Stark




Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 2428
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big problem is that some relatively innocuous substances are used to mask other more potent agents. If tested positive, a claim can be made that it was from an OTC remedy, but that is not always the case.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

doug wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.


It's as easy as typing a web address and then typing the name of your medication. And only use supplements that have been batch tested by informed sport. Again easy to check online although the supplement check cannot be used as a defense the globaldro queries can if you keep your reference number and print result off. Same with whereabouts, it's your job. Every day double check your week is up-to date
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
doug wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.


It's as easy as typing a web address and then typing the name of your medication. And only use supplements that have been batch tested by informed sport. Again easy to check online although the supplement check cannot be used as a defense the globaldro queries can if you keep your reference number and print result off. Same with whereabouts, it's your job. Every day double check your week is up-to date


indeed, so don't take them...
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
hammerer wrote:
doug wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.


It's as easy as typing a web address and then typing the name of your medication. And only use supplements that have been batch tested by informed sport. Again easy to check online although the supplement check cannot be used as a defense the globaldro queries can if you keep your reference number and print result off. Same with whereabouts, it's your job. Every day double check your week is up-to date


indeed, so don't take them...


thats fine for most sports but something like LD tri it becomes more difficult but still more than possible. still they dont really test in Ironman so not an issue. Rolling Eyes
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
hammerer wrote:
doug wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
It really isn't that difficult...


In the real world it really is.


It's as easy as typing a web address and then typing the name of your medication. And only use supplements that have been batch tested by informed sport. Again easy to check online although the supplement check cannot be used as a defense the globaldro queries can if you keep your reference number and print result off. Same with whereabouts, it's your job. Every day double check your week is up-to date


indeed, so don't take them...


thats fine for most sports but something like LD tri it becomes more difficult but still more than possible. still they dont really test in Ironman so not an issue. Rolling Eyes


the lack of testing is indeed a problem...
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