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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FatPom wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:

But again what do I know.


Clearly SFA when it comes to North or South Korea Rolling Eyes
ok FatPom, I hear your vast experience that you previously noted re Korea. Please tell me precisely and specifically where I am wrong and why. I am listening.

You never know I may agree with you that I am wrong.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
China really don't want a war next door so I think if it gets that far that they will intervene more directly. They don't want a political vacuum either so maybe they would encourage someone else to take over?


Hmm depends on the type of conflict. I would be surprised if it is 'clean' enough for China to want to send troops into the killing fields. I suspect they'd wait for the worst of it to be over, then intervene in the aftermath.

I would expect their troops to build up on the borders in the coming weeks though.

Sorry, I didn't mean that they'd send troops in. More use their clear influence to have someone/people within the NK government remove KJU and replace them with a more sensible leader. That maybe forced (buy luxury) exile within China or the way that KJU disposes of any perceived threat (however minor).


Yeah, I know what you're hoping for - I would, but I just don't think the god king's rule of fear allows much room for plotting. Think Saddam Hussain's regime, but much much more insipid fear and paranoia.

its ridiculous to have allowed him to get this far. Conceding defeat to his odious monster is to pat him on the back for his family's systematic abuse and torture of millions of people. Hey Folks! Live in a worthless country? Simply round up the poor, enslave them and set yourself up a a godking, build nukes, then join UNSEC and enjoy free trade! <applause>
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:


its ridiculous to have allowed him to get this far. Conceding defeat to his odious monster is to pat him on the back for his family's systematic abuse and torture of millions of people. Hey Folks! Live in a worthless country? Simply round up the poor, enslave them and set yourself up a a godking, build nukes, then join UNSEC and enjoy free trade! <applause>


yep, that was the UK...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinPot

I hear you.

But the fact remains that NK is a sovereign state that we share this planet with. And what matters most is planetary stability. NK is disrupting that in a bid to get more of the cake. But so have many nations before including our own in the Empire days.

Every nation, like every person, goes through periods of evolution, and every nation is at a different stage, just as we are all at different points of our lifespan.

NK have working nukes. Fact. They have rockets, submarines, agents who regularly get into SK (and get identified quickly by SK intelligence), they allegedly assassinate people in other nations e.g. macau.

Given this reality, what are the real options?

1. More of the same, which clearly hasn't worked.
2. Offer them a win win solution.

I am not saying that you should give them a free reign to wreck global havoc, just recognising the realities of the situation and looking for the best way forwards.

At least we now know what Chinas intentions are in their desire to prevent global war, they look like they are willing to shoot down any NK rockets themselves.

Having read a book by a chap born in a NK camp who escaped to SK I am no NK fan. But we are where we are.
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
TinPot

I hear you.

But the fact remains that NK is a sovereign state that we share this planet with. And what matters most is planetary stability. NK is disrupting that in a bid to get more of the cake. But so have many nations before including our own in the Empire days.

Every nation, like every person, goes through periods of evolution, and every nation is at a different stage, just as we are all at different points of our lifespan.

NK have working nukes. Fact. They have rockets, submarines, agents who regularly get into SK (and get identified quickly by SK intelligence), they allegedly assassinate people in other nations e.g. macau.

Given this reality, what are the real options?

1. More of the same, which clearly hasn't worked.
2. Offer them a win win solution.

I am not saying that you should give them a free reign to wreck global havoc, just recognising the realities of the situation and looking for the best way forwards.

At least we now know what Chinas intentions are in their desire to prevent global war, they look like they are willing to shoot down any NK rockets themselves.

Having read a book by a chap born in a NK camp who escaped to SK I am no NK fan. But we are where we are.



Ahh Appeasement


That always goes well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
China really don't want a war next door so I think if it gets that far that they will intervene more directly. They don't want a political vacuum either so maybe they would encourage someone else to take over?


Hmm depends on the type of conflict. I would be surprised if it is 'clean' enough for China to want to send troops into the killing fields. I suspect they'd wait for the worst of it to be over, then intervene in the aftermath.

I would expect their troops to build up on the borders in the coming weeks though.

Sorry, I didn't mean that they'd send troops in. More use their clear influence to have someone/people within the NK government remove KJU and replace them with a more sensible leader. That maybe forced (buy luxury) exile within China or the way that KJU disposes of any perceived threat (however minor).


Yeah, I know what you're hoping for - I would, but I just don't think the god king's rule of fear allows much room for plotting. Think Saddam Hussain's regime, but much much more insipid fear and paranoia.

its ridiculous to have allowed him to get this far. Conceding defeat to his odious monster is to pat him on the back for his family's systematic abuse and torture of millions of people. Hey Folks! Live in a worthless country? Simply round up the poor, enslave them and set yourself up a a godking, build nukes, then join UNSEC and enjoy free trade! <applause>


I agree that getting it done internally would be difficult but I doubt any of the people close buy into the god king stuff other than fear of getting killed. There was a clip a while back where the army officers were clapping him and one wasn't until he realised the camera was on their group and suddenly a beaming smile and lots of applause. China can bring that regime down by switching off the energy and food. I don't think they would but that can use that leverage for those around him to sort it out or they will. That would ultimately lead to revolution. I admit they don't want war an chaos internally within NK but that would be better than Trump flattening the place.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
TinPot

I hear you.

But the fact remains that NK is a sovereign state that we share this planet with. And what matters most is planetary stability. NK is disrupting that in a bid to get more of the cake. But so have many nations before including our own in the Empire days.

Every nation, like every person, goes through periods of evolution, and every nation is at a different stage, just as we are all at different points of our lifespan.

NK have working nukes. Fact. They have rockets, submarines, agents who regularly get into SK (and get identified quickly by SK intelligence), they allegedly assassinate people in other nations e.g. macau.

Given this reality, what are the real options?

1. More of the same, which clearly hasn't worked.
2. Offer them a win win solution.

I am not saying that you should give them a free reign to wreck global havoc, just recognising the realities of the situation and looking for the best way forwards.

At least we now know what Chinas intentions are in their desire to prevent global war, they look like they are willing to shoot down any NK rockets themselves.

Having read a book by a chap born in a NK camp who escaped to SK I am no NK fan. But we are where we are.



Ahh Appeasement


That always goes well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement


And sovereign nations? Your mindset is from the 19th century. Nations are not atomic, indivisible and equivalent. The DKPR represents the interests of a few thousand people whilst holding hostage millions. To talk of DKPR maturing on its own is to dehumanise millions, and condemn their lives, for the sake of making it easier for you to think about.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
SGreg wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
TinPot

I hear you.

But the fact remains that NK is a sovereign state that we share this planet with. And what matters most is planetary stability. NK is disrupting that in a bid to get more of the cake. But so have many nations before including our own in the Empire days.

Every nation, like every person, goes through periods of evolution, and every nation is at a different stage, just as we are all at different points of our lifespan.

NK have working nukes. Fact. They have rockets, submarines, agents who regularly get into SK (and get identified quickly by SK intelligence), they allegedly assassinate people in other nations e.g. macau.

Given this reality, what are the real options?

1. More of the same, which clearly hasn't worked.
2. Offer them a win win solution.

I am not saying that you should give them a free reign to wreck global havoc, just recognising the realities of the situation and looking for the best way forwards.

At least we now know what Chinas intentions are in their desire to prevent global war, they look like they are willing to shoot down any NK rockets themselves.

Having read a book by a chap born in a NK camp who escaped to SK I am no NK fan. But we are where we are.



Ahh Appeasement


That always goes well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement


And sovereign nations? Your mindset is from the 19th century. Nations are not atomic, indivisible and equivalent. The DKPR represents the interests of a few thousand people whilst holding hostage millions. To talk of DKPR maturing on its own is to dehumanise millions, and condemn their lives, for the sake of making it easier for you to think about.


Er...20th century
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay then...


I think that every sovereign state has the right to control its affairs as it sees fit, and that any changes have to be a matter between the people and the government of any nation.

After all we share this planet and have evolved in different ways for different reasons.

Now that is not to say, like a good friend, that one nation can't give advice to another nation, nor defend itself if a nation gets aggressive. Equally if you want to buy widgets from a nation but only want to do so if factory conditions and pollution are at certain standards that isn't unreasonable, after all they can say no.

Look at China, a communist country that saw the potential of capitalism and developed HK to pearl river delta, to Shanghi. We didn't have to demand they did that, they saw the benefits and chose to adapt.

I just think that with NK what we have done in the past clearly has not worked. So like madmen do we just repeat and repeat hoping for a different outcome? No. We show leadership, accept reality, and move positively forwards in a controlled manner.

An economically stronger NK, in the club, may become scared of loosing the benefits so conform. And a more open NK could escalate internal changes.

In no way am I suggesting appeasement, just a different approach from that which has clearly failed. Given the realities of our time.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot

Turning your argument around who is to say that us westerns are not enslaved by capitalism and that China has it right? Should China be allowed to control us and force us to develop in the Chinese way?

Of course not.

We share this planet, different systems evolved and we have to get along. But who is to say that one is right for everyone?

The variety enables us to be able to enjoy different sets of life experiences.

That said, like you I am appalled at the NK camp system, but then again I am also appalled by alleged American and British torture.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

Er...20th century


Did anything of note happen last Century?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:


I think that every sovereign state has the right to control its affairs as it sees fit, and that any changes have to be a matter between the people and the government of any nation.

After all we share this planet and have evolved in different ways for different reasons.

.


So, NK should get nukes if they so wish...

SloggingScotsman wrote:


Look at China, a communist country that saw the potential of capitalism and developed HK to pearl river delta, to Shanghi. We didn't have to demand they did that, they saw the benefits and chose to adapt.

.


we didn't demand it, we just didn't let them, and other communist countries, into the fold until the best part of 100 mil had died and their ideology had run its course...

SloggingScotsman wrote:


I just think that with NK what we have done in the past clearly has not worked. So like madmen do we just repeat and repeat hoping for a different outcome? No. We show leadership, accept reality, and move positively forwards in a controlled manner.
.


what has happened with NK clearly has worked until now....the situation is changing and the response is changing...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:


I think that every sovereign state has the right to control its affairs as it sees fit, and that any changes have to be a matter between the people and the government of any nation.

After all we share this planet and have evolved in different ways for different reasons.

.


So, NK should get nukes if they so wish...
NK already have nukes. Fact.

I am not saying let them get more nuclear teachnolgy, as they are evidently able to do that themselves. We have failed to stop them.


Quote:


SloggingScotsman wrote:


Look at China, a communist country that saw the potential of capitalism and developed HK to pearl river delta, to Shanghi. We didn't have to demand they did that, they saw the benefits and chose to adapt.

.


we didn't demand it, we just didn't let them, and other communist countries, into the fold until the best part of 100 mil had died and their ideology had run its course...
ejc now I am baffled, we didn't let China do anything, they did it themselves. Unless you know different, in which case sources please.
Quote:

SloggingScotsman wrote:


I just think that with NK what we have done in the past clearly has not worked. So like madmen do we just repeat and repeat hoping for a different outcome? No. We show leadership, accept reality, and move positively forwards in a controlled manner.
.


what has happened with NK clearly has worked until now....the situation is changing and the response is changing...
how is NK developing nukes on their own with all those restrictions worked Ejc? We even seem to have been caught with our pants down at the speed of their development.

We failed. Whether through blindness, egos, or whatever, we failed.

What is happening now is politicians panicking at the realisation of the implications and perhaps not accepting that we may have lost the upper hand.

More of the same will just make matters worse. If only through enabling China to take control of a situation we aren't up to, and both Russia and China gaining relative global political advantage at Americas expense, and sadly given Teresa Mays comments ours.


I just hope that British Intelligence is sufficiently ahead of the game and not living in the land of nineteenth century upper class superiority. That would be disasterous. Not as dangerous as politicians walking us towards a war that could devastate us physically, and more realistically politically.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:

We share this planet, different systems evolved and we have to get along. But who is to say that one is right for everyone?


Me.

And anyone who is isnt a wishwashy tree-hugging hippie.

For too long people have half assed about with false equivalence between cultures and nations. It's worse than ridiculous, it's directly helping tyranny.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:


I think that every sovereign state has the right to control its affairs as it sees fit, and that any changes have to be a matter between the people and the government of any nation.

After all we share this planet and have evolved in different ways for different reasons.

.


So, NK should get nukes if they so wish...
NK already have nukes. Fact.

I am not saying let them get more nuclear teachnolgy, as they are evidently able to do that themselves. We have failed to stop them.


Quote:


SloggingScotsman wrote:


Look at China, a communist country that saw the potential of capitalism and developed HK to pearl river delta, to Shanghi. We didn't have to demand they did that, they saw the benefits and chose to adapt.

.


we didn't demand it, we just didn't let them, and other communist countries, into the fold until the best part of 100 mil had died and their ideology had run its course...
ejc now I am baffled, we didn't let China do anything, they did it themselves. Unless you know different, in which case sources please.
Quote:

SloggingScotsman wrote:


I just think that with NK what we have done in the past clearly has not worked. So like madmen do we just repeat and repeat hoping for a different outcome? No. We show leadership, accept reality, and move positively forwards in a controlled manner.
.


what has happened with NK clearly has worked until now....the situation is changing and the response is changing...
how is NK developing nukes on their own with all those restrictions worked Ejc? We even seem to have been caught with our pants down at the speed of their development.

We failed. Whether through blindness, egos, or whatever, we failed.

What is happening now is politicians panicking at the realisation of the implications and perhaps not accepting that we may have lost the upper hand.

More of the same will just make matters worse. If only through enabling China to take control of a situation we aren't up to, and both Russia and China gaining relative global political advantage at Americas expense, and sadly given Teresa Mays comments ours.


I just hope that British Intelligence is sufficiently ahead of the game and not living in the land of nineteenth century upper class superiority. That would be disasterous. Not as dangerous as politicians walking us towards a war that could devastate us physically, and more realistically politically.


oh Sloggers, you are always so full of contradictions...

NK should be free to develop, but not to develop a nuclear capability....this has always intrigued me as a position to hold...

you seem to have been caught with your pants down over understanding NK's nuclear development...the programme started in 1956...even by your standards that's quite a slow flash to bang time...

Do you really want me to find you a source for evidence of sanctions on China? Seriously? I'm sure you don't need remote viewing for that...

So what if China does take a lead role in resolving this. Good for them. The world has been too reliant on the US, they are fatigued in their world saviour role and get criticism whatever they do and probably aren't up for a fight...we certainly aren't (see my earlier post)...so China brokering a deal with NK is fine by me...

not sure what you mean by 19C intelligence services...is this a Tin pot misunderstanding or do you really think the services are a bit old hat?
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