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tunster




Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Catalonia Reply with quote

what a mess - not sure where this is going to end up - peacefully I hope
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very sad

i have no idea why they were not allowed to hold a poll...it's all slightly worrying to me...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Catalonia Reply with quote

tunster wrote:
what a mess - not sure where this is going to end up - peacefully I hope
dont have a clue either tunster.

For a peaceful solution you are probably going to need someone who can touch hearts, smooth the fractures, and find a win win way forwards.

There is a lot at stake here, including:-

1. The stability of the region and country.
2. It’s impact on other independence prone areas.
3. It’s impact on the EU. How this may change thinking, it could speed up Macrons plans for unity.
4. How the EU are likely to react to Brexit if it fears more break ups in the union.
5. Potential implications for Scotland in any potential independence but stay in the EU events.
6.Not forgetting those whose lives are now scarred by arrests etc.

Western Europe has been largely free of civil trouble, but there is so much (take a deep breath) pent up ‘energy’ because of austerity that ‘troubles’ could easily start up in various parts of the Union, and as we know from the Arab Spring and before that the collapse of soviet communism, once one brick falls...

Before it is pointed out I do know that Catalonia’s gripes are way bigger than austerity, they are more like some Scottish beefs with England, but by way of illustration and explaining how one event can link to another in a chain, I used austerity as that would be the driver for multiplication across regions.

That all said I don’t have a clue how this will end up, hopefully peacefully, under wise leadership that understands and values all people.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, the scenes of Police using rubber bullets & gas against parents at school polling stations is going to make a lot of people around Spain think hard. I would also imagine a lot of those police officers are not comfortable after some time to reflect on yesterday's events. Either way, the Spanish Govt has played its hand and genie is out of the bottle.

When I first saw some footage, I thought it was Turkey or somewhere like that; I was taken aback when I saw it was Spain.
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JamieMcP




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really doesn't look good for the Spanish gov, I think only something like 40% of people were actually in favour on independence, and I am sure that number has now gone up considerably now.

I voted no in the Scottish independence referendum, but if the British government had acted in such a manner I would have almost certainly voted yes.

It's probably also worth noting that Spain is a relatively young democracy, only about 50 years old.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JamieMcP wrote:
I really doesn't look good for the Spanish gov, I think only something like 40% of people were actually in favour on independence, and I am sure that number has now gone up considerably now


Some reports are saying that around 750,000 voting slips were confiscated; no way to verify that though.

Still, Chris Evans got involved...

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JamieMcP




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
JamieMcP wrote:
I really doesn't look good for the Spanish gov, I think only something like 40% of people were actually in favour on independence, and I am sure that number has now gone up considerably now


Some reports are saying that around 750,000 voting slips were confiscated; no way to verify that though.


The 40% comes from a pre referendum poll, but we all know how accurate those are.

Given that it was an "unofficial poll" a lot of people who were against it would probably just have abstained, so it would have always probably been a yes.

I wonder if they will count them or just shred them.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too was comparing this to some of the banana republics of my former life...however the depth of feeling has perhaps been masked by unity across the country...

i wonder how much youth unemployment in Spain has been a contributory factor, although it is falling, it remains shockingly high...a marvel of many years of EU membership...


this is a spectacular display of denying freedom of expression...now, i wonder who has been warning of that for years???
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

this is a spectacular display of denying freedom of expression...now, i wonder who has been warning of that for years???


Well, there's only one clairvoyant on this Forum.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

this is a spectacular display of denying freedom of expression...now, i wonder who has been warning of that for years???


Well, there's only one clairvoyant on this Forum.


but that hasn't been one of the claims...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

this is a spectacular display of denying freedom of expression...now, i wonder who has been warning of that for years???


Well, there's only one clairvoyant on this Forum.
and that is not me.

I don’t place a card on my head and guess nor look into a crystal ball Jorgan.

In my own way, I use data.

Part of it is:-

1. Reading widely.
2. Thinking extensively for decades, and I mean active reflective thinking.
3. Recognising patterns in ‘how I feel’ (I know that sounds barmy but it is what it is) about an issue, measured in decades. Learning what different feelings ‘mean’ through experience.

I don’t guess, I don’t claim that I know everything, but sometimes I get what an old school copper might call ‘gut feeling’ and I have learnt, and am learning to, identify, recognise, etc.
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Catalunya Reply with quote

Can we change the spelling of the subject to Catalunya, every time I read these I just get that welsh mulder and scully crooning into my head.
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
i have no idea why they were not allowed to hold a poll...it's all slightly worrying to me...


Because the constitution says so and overall the Catalonian separatists are a small minority of the Spanish population.

At least the Scots got approval from their parliament for a referendum and the Brexit referendum followed the EU rules on such matters.

The Catalonians just ignored every law that didn't suit them and decided to hold it anyway - and now want the protection from the same legal system they stuck two fingers at.

Its not about 'freedom of expression' - its about ignoring the laws of the country you live i.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
i have no idea why they were not allowed to hold a poll...it's all slightly worrying to me...


Because the constitution says so and overall the Catalonian separatists are a small minority of the Spanish population.

At least the Scots got approval from their parliament for a referendum and the Brexit referendum followed the EU rules on such matters.

The Catalonians just ignored every law that didn't suit them and decided to hold it anyway - and now want the protection from the same legal system they stuck two fingers at.

Its not about 'freedom of expression' - its about ignoring the laws of the country you live i.


which is all well and good until it starts working against you...

so, by no fault of their own, some people are born into a country where they can't even offer a united opinion on determination...

how sad is that...a similarity to the Kurds springs to mind...
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Whisk




Joined: 09 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Spanish minister was on Newsnight last night putting forward the government's view. Interestingly, he said that any decision for Catalonia to separate was a decision for the whole of Spain, not just Catalonia, as it would have wide ranging impacts on the whole country. Therefore, any independence referendum would have to be voted on by the whole country.

Given that Catalonia is a relatively prosperous region that contributes more than its' fair share to the Spanish coffers, I can't see the rest of the country voting for them to go.
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