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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2639

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO

I am sort of stuck between the rock and the hard place here, you and Ejc.

I can see both your points of view.

However what concerns me is the raw energy on the streets, which will be reinforcing the energy in peopleís hearts, with the result that this could get really bad. In Catalonia and elsewhere in Europe as I have noted before. Though I donít have a clue what is going to happen.

I am simply talking about that evident Ďenergyí that has poured out, and then been visibly reinforced by the actions and counter actions. That is worrying, though natural.

How would you GrahamO deal with that energy? Would you try to:-

1. Heal it?
2. Squash it?
3. Something else?

Personally I would try to heal it, by recognising that there is an internal national issue that needs sorting, and trying to find a win win solution that works at the level of peopleís hearts (so that they want to buy into it) and not their heads (which could inflame future tensions as it simmers away beneath the surface).

Itís an instructive point as it is relevant, to different degrees, globally, from Scotland, to China.
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Legislating against opinion is an act of oppression, whether voted for by a majority or not.

Like many places, the boundaries are arbitrary and formed over years of conquest.

A similar example in the UK is in what has now become Ireland and Northern Ireland


You have a very warped view of reality. Nobody is legislating against opinion - what just utter BS. The people of Catalonia are entirely free to say what they want. Nobody stops them from expressing an opinion, but Catalonia is part of Spain and Spain has laws which again, you blithely ignore because they are inconvenient.

Boundaries are what they are - blaming other parties for the facts of centuries of history is ridiculous. Lets hand Catalonia back to the countries which were Moors and see how they like to go back in history, if they are going get selective over recent history.

Ireland-Northern Ireland is again, completely different.

Like it or not, Catalonia is part of Spain and has been or decades if not centuries, and is bound by the laws of the country which was there long before any of the current population and probably their parents.

Normal people don't just ignore the laws of their country, stick two fingers up at the other people who have an equal say on the future of their country and have a tantrum because their parents wont let them do what they want.

The Catalonians are like the Nats on acid, fired up with Spanish hot headedness.

The violence was unforgivable on both sides but be very clear, the people in the polling station were breaking the law and should have been dragged off to jail. If they resisted, then they get whatever it takes to enforce the law. nationalism does not justify in any way, breaking the law.

I can pretty much guarantee that if a large section of the Moslem community in Spain, or Catalonia tried to secede, the Catalonians would be moaning like mad. As would you.
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tunster




Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having started the debate, I feel duty bound to say something in response to comments above.

I agree that Catalonia cannot independently voted to leave Spain any more than Cornwall could declare independence from the UK

The decision by the Spanish govt to send in the riot squads to try to prevent the referendum seems however to have been an almighty own goal that has polarised opinion both in Spain and Catalonia further

Would have been better in my view to let them have their vote and say - so what if you had a referendum - it doesn't mean anything as the vote was illegal

Given the heads of the Catalans say that they are now going to declare independence does seem to escalate things further but he now has an awful lot more momentum behind him

A difficult position for the EU - they won't let Catalonia stay in the EU if eventually get independence - Spanish will not allow it and EU won't allow it either for fear of who will follow (did we (the UK) kick this whole thing off/give it momentum with the Scottish referendum??). Barcelona won't be able to play in La Liga (Messi in the premier league anyone?)

Who knows what will happen - perhaps our first free trade deal post Brexit will be with Catalonia?
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO

Bare with me here. You make an important, valid, correct, but equally historically flawed point.

I am watching the Netflix series Sense8, which in one episode brought up the standard conspiracy fare of the old Enki/Enlil division. Some people are emotionless logical individuals while others are emotional connectives.

That is a useful construct for my point.

You correctly wrote...and I am not disagreeing ....,

GrahamO wrote:


The violence was unforgivable on both sides but be very clear, the people in the polling station were breaking the law and should have been dragged off to jail. If they resisted, then they get whatever it takes to enforce the law. nationalism does not justify in any way, breaking the law.



The but is that historically, throughout most nations and historic time period, in practice that viewpoint has led to collapse of the regime in power. India, but one, comes to mind in recent history.

The question is why?

The answer lies in the emotions, the raw energy, the frustration spilling over etc. And here is the conundrum, experience tells us, that doing what you should do here, enforce the law, could easily lead to you loosing power and control.

The power of emotions are immense, and while they can be controlled for a time, once things go to far they have enough energy to do the seemingly impossible.

It probably frightens the life out of those who have never really felt the sheer power of emotions. Being a highly sensitive emotional bloke myself I can perhaps more easily Ďconnectí in this way. In my opinion many of our worlds current and imminent future problems are a direct result of emotionless.


So what can be done? See my post above.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tunster wrote:

I agree that Catalonia cannot independently voted to leave Spain any more than Cornwall could declare independence from the UK


Why not? They should be allowed to hold as many meaningless votes as they like...there's nothing wrong with pointing and laughing, or, of course, winning the debate as to why they should stay...


tunster wrote:

Would have been better in my view to let them have their vote and say - so what if you had a referendum - it doesn't mean anything as the vote was illegal


That's better...

tunster wrote:

The decision by the Spanish govt to send in the riot squads to try to prevent the referendum seems however to have been an almighty own goal that has polarised opinion both in Spain and Catalonia further



Yep, it's a spectacular own goal...


tunster wrote:


A difficult position for the EU -


They have called the vote illegal, not that it was their place to do so, but i suppose it makes themselves feel important...this, plus the government reaction, could have nailed it for the region...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14810
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Legislating against opinion is an act of oppression, whether voted for by a majority or not.

Like many places, the boundaries are arbitrary and formed over years of conquest.

A similar example in the UK is in what has now become Ireland and Northern Ireland


You have a very warped view of reality. Nobody is legislating against opinion - what just utter BS. The people of Catalonia are entirely free to say what they want. Nobody stops them from expressing an opinion, but Catalonia is part of Spain and Spain has laws which again, you blithely ignore because they are inconvenient.

Boundaries are what they are - blaming other parties for the facts of centuries of history is ridiculous. Lets hand Catalonia back to the countries which were Moors and see how they like to go back in history, if they are going get selective over recent history.

Ireland-Northern Ireland is again, completely different.

Like it or not, Catalonia is part of Spain and has been or decades if not centuries, and is bound by the laws of the country which was there long before any of the current population and probably their parents.

Normal people don't just ignore the laws of their country, stick two fingers up at the other people who have an equal say on the future of their country and have a tantrum because their parents wont let them do what they want.

The Catalonians are like the Nats on acid, fired up with Spanish hot headedness.

The violence was unforgivable on both sides but be very clear, the people in the polling station were breaking the law and should have been dragged off to jail. If they resisted, then they get whatever it takes to enforce the law. nationalism does not justify in any way, breaking the law.

I can pretty much guarantee that if a large section of the Moslem community in Spain, or Catalonia tried to secede, the Catalonians would be moaning like mad. As would you.


I would be very interested to know why the Irish question is different...

I am also impressed that you believe you know what my reaction would be to other events...please keep them coming and it will save me from having a considered opinion...

Thankfully most of us have moved on from 1978...
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 9916
Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
I would be very interested to know why the Irish question is different...

I am also impressed that you believe you know what my reaction would be to other events...please keep them coming and it will save me from having a considered opinion...

Thankfully most of us have moved on from 1978...


I would quite like it if you would have the good grace to admit that your comments are in the main, easily proven BS. Funny that when your points are shot down in flames, you never seem to reply but instead move on to another equally unfounded subject.

Why is NI different ?

Spain wants to be whole, the minority wants to separate but the whole of Spain had a vote on it and said No, we are all staying as one country. The minority squealers ignored the law and held a pointless referendum and pretty much as you failed to predict they are not just looking for a voice, but now plan to break the law even further and secede. Looks like more BS from you on what they want - they are going to try and secede and not just wanted to have a voice.

All of the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland has never had a vote on what the whole wants. And the Northern Ireland territories didnt hold a vote on their own to secede.

So utterly unlike Spain.

Your 'considered' opinion involves little consideration for the facts. its pure dogma.

I am not sure what you mean by 1978 but its good that some people understand the law despite your attempts to ignore the bits you don't agree with and support lawbreaking.

Do laws mean nothing to you when you don't like the outcome ? Personally I CGAF what happens to Catalonia but I'd rather live in democratic society where when losers lose a vote, they don't find muppets who support them ignoring it.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2639

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To illustrate how to change things you donít like...


Play the long game. Be the tortoise.


Consider my letter to Tory MPs back in the day, however poorly constructed. Now 5-7 years later we have:

1. My own Tory mp agreeing with me on one specific point of the impossible positions the government have placed people (me) in. Itís only one point, but he told me, in my home, that I was right (on that one specific point).

2. Twelve Tory MPs have grasped the enormity of the impending collapse in Tory support from the upcoming likely homelessness surge over the next year or two (unless the government does in reality change track), and the consequent effect this will have at election time.

3. In the meantime our government are fire fighting like mad, while internal political battles drain their energy. The hare is flagging. For precisely the reason given in the fable, it may have been on the right course (and I broadly agree with government policy) but it went too fast for the energy to sustain and without harm. Probably a factor of political timescales.

Now reflect on this when considering the likes of Catalonia. If they play the long game they will win independence, however that may not be in their best interests given how the world has globalised and come together.

Itís a bit like my own nation, Scotland. I fully understand the desire for independence. However economically sadly the job base isnít there. And if you are wanting independence from England yet remain tied to the EU, that isnít independence. Thatís just politics. As my wife would say North Korea is independence.

As the words of Flower of Scotland say:

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

......

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain

But we can still rise now
And be the nation again

That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


The point, the past is the past, itís behind us, all we can do is rise up and inspire and lead, like we once did, but without the violence and disharmony of the past.

Catalonia may find thatís its future success would be better served by respecting the law, being the tortoise, and importantly, rising to the challenge and democratically leading Spain. Through national elections, etc. That would be a far more constructive use of its energy than becoming a possibly non recognised country, whose wealth is likely to diminish as other nations seek to stop those energies spilling over into their nations.

Again consider Scotland, and its global influence. Even in my Oxfordshire town, the official parades have Scots pipe bands playing Scotland the Brave. Same in Canada, parts of the US etc. Always tickles me.

Itís amazing how influential you can be from the shadows.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But then again what do I know.

Mr Bilderberg my membership card seems to have got lost in the post.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/h0Wz8ig2y9Y

A pretty face and music never hurt. Laughing
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
I would be very interested to know why the Irish question is different...

I am also impressed that you believe you know what my reaction would be to other events...please keep them coming and it will save me from having a considered opinion...

Thankfully most of us have moved on from 1978...


I would quite like it if you would have the good grace to admit that your comments are in the main, easily proven BS. Funny that when your points are shot down in flames, you never seem to reply but instead move on to another equally unfounded subject.

Why is NI different ?

Spain wants to be whole, the minority wants to separate but the whole of Spain had a vote on it and said No, we are all staying as one country. The minority squealers ignored the law and held a pointless referendum and pretty much as you failed to predict they are not just looking for a voice, but now plan to break the law even further and secede. Looks like more BS from you on what they want - they are going to try and secede and not just wanted to have a voice.

All of the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland has never had a vote on what the whole wants. And the Northern Ireland territories didnt hold a vote on their own to secede.

So utterly unlike Spain.

Your 'considered' opinion involves little consideration for the facts. its pure dogma.

I am not sure what you mean by 1978 but its good that some people understand the law despite your attempts to ignore the bits you don't agree with and support lawbreaking.

Do laws mean nothing to you when you don't like the outcome ? Personally I CGAF what happens to Catalonia but I'd rather live in democratic society where when losers lose a vote, they don't find muppets who support them ignoring it.


I haven't dropped any of my points. It is pointless presenting information that goes over your head. By sounding off between your responses you highlight your inability to debate at a mature level. I don't have a dogmatic opinion on this, I am open to debate, but your best point is lost in the diatribe.

So, the difference between Ireland is one of numbers and a vote. I'd guess, had there been a vote I would guess that most of the UK would have wished Ireland to remain part of the UK.

The sensible way for Spain to deal with this would have been to have said that they can vote as much as they like. That's the way to run a democracy. But there's a law that says you can't.

I don't suppose there's an independent country anywhere that hasn't broken the laws of the land.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the season, the easiest way to settle this disagreement is via conkers. Best of 3.

Three conkers must be submitted for scrutineering 30 min before the first swing.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Given the season, the easiest way to settle this disagreement is via conkers. Best of 3.

Three conkers must be submitted for scrutineering 30 min before the first swing.


But you'd need freedom to express yourself with conkers first....
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are vinegar and varnish on the banned list or can you get electric conkers?

But only because everyone else is so that makes it fair
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaRok2300 wrote:
Are vinegar and varnish on the banned list or can you get electric conkers?

But only because everyone else is so that makes it fair


No chemicals may be used.
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