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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be looking for another option.
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan
Do you mean another coach or don't get a coach at all?

Everyone I know who has or has one goes faster some marginally some make big gains.

I quite fancy having a go this winter but I think I would struggle doing things I didn't believe in.
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To turn this more general - i.e. how to find a suitable coach.

I would assume that all training plans start from a generic program based around the particular coach's philosophy and experience. The amount of bespokeness will depend on the amount of interaction which presumably comes down to how much you pay and degrees of separation (face to face, email, skype, Training Peaks etc). But on day 1, with almost every coach it is going to give a very generic plan with maybe just a few specific tweaks based on high level criteria like “I want to work on my swim” or “I can’t train on Fridays due to other commitments”.

The value of the coach is presumably how that generic plan is moulded over the training cycle based on progress and feedback from both sides. So while you may pick a coach based around their philosophy and the plan they present on day 1, it isn’t until you have run with it for a few months that you are going to know if this coach is really working for you. But there are plenty of coaches on here who can presumably express their value proposition better than me.

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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Jorgan
Do you mean another coach or don't get a coach at all?


Another coach/plan, assuming what the OP said was true. MA's trainign was based on huge hours, hence the low HR. If you only have 10h a week, you need different stimuli.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
To turn this more general - i.e. how to find a suitable coach.

I would assume that all training plans start from a generic program based around the particular coach's philosophy and experience. The amount of bespokeness will depend on the amount of interaction which presumably comes down to how much you pay and degrees of separation (face to face, email, skype, Training Peaks etc). But on day 1, with almost every coach it is going to give a very generic plan with maybe just a few specific tweaks based on high level criteria like “I want to work on my swim” or “I can’t train on Fridays due to other commitments”.

The value of the coach is presumably how that generic plan is moulded over the training cycle based on progress and feedback from both sides. So while you may pick a coach based around their philosophy and the plan they present on day 1, it isn’t until you have run with it for a few months that you are going to know if this coach is really working for you. But there are plenty of coaches on here who can presumably express their value proposition better than me.

--


You are mostly correct; the coach has some favoured tools in the tool box, but even from Day 1 a good athlete needs analysis can elicit specific requirements. As an example, developing aspects of skill can be happening before awareness of fitness gains...
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
To turn this more general - i.e. how to find a suitable coach.

I would assume that all training plans start from a generic program based around the particular coach's philosophy and experience. The amount of bespokeness will depend on the amount of interaction which presumably comes down to how much you pay and degrees of separation (face to face, email, skype, Training Peaks etc). But on day 1, with almost every coach it is going to give a very generic plan with maybe just a few specific tweaks based on high level criteria like "I want to work on my swim" or "I can’t train on Fridays due to other commitments".

The value of the coach is presumably how that generic plan is moulded over the training cycle based on progress and feedback from both sides. So while you may pick a coach based around their philosophy and the plan they present on day 1, it isn't until you have run with it for a few months that you are going to know if this coach is really working for you. But there are plenty of coaches on here who can presumably express their value proposition better than me.

I agree with most of this. I'm just in the process of commencing being coached. Officially start at the beginning of next month. But most of what you said is exactly how it has gone so far for me.

Initial selection was between two of the coaches large numbers in my club use. Eventually came down to the fact one has a lot of demonstrable experience dealing with people who race lots, and are quirky with their schedules, plus was a bit cheaper. Same one Spraggz uses actually, and I wont lie, the results some of this coaches athletes have achieved also played a part - not that the other hasnt had a lot of success too. The other I am using over the winter for some 1:1 swim sessions (already made some noticeable gains after one private lesson - 4s off my 100TT, down to 1:17 at the end of a drills session he set).

So far we've had one face to face get together to cover most of what you said. My goals, his style and philosophy, my training constraints in terms of available time etc. That lasted nearly 2hrs and I paid nothing for it, so I already feel like there's a demonstration of commitment on the coaches part as well.

Will remain to be seen what benefit it has for me, but I mainly want the accountability. Plus, having now signed up for my first IM, I want a little more comfort in relying on someone who has taken people through that challenge a number of times. I've been self coached since starting in 2013, and made reasonable progress (best result probably the 4:39 at Cotswold Classic), but my training often gets a bit hit and miss, so I'm hoping some extra discipline could yield reasonable improvement.

Fingers crossed!
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
To turn this more general - i.e. how to find a suitable coach.

I would assume that all training plans start from a generic program based around the particular coach's philosophy and experience. The amount of bespokeness will depend on the amount of interaction which presumably comes down to how much you pay and degrees of separation (face to face, email, skype, Training Peaks etc). But on day 1, with almost every coach it is going to give a very generic plan with maybe just a few specific tweaks based on high level criteria like “I want to work on my swim” or “I can’t train on Fridays due to other commitments”.

The value of the coach is presumably how that generic plan is moulded over the training cycle based on progress and feedback from both sides. So while you may pick a coach based around their philosophy and the plan they present on day 1, it isn’t until you have run with it for a few months that you are going to know if this coach is really working for you. But there are plenty of coaches on here who can presumably express their value proposition better than me.

--


I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter. My view is to work with them even for just a session or 2 in each discipline assessing their technique and ability. You then look at results and speak to them about those races, what was good, what was bad and set some benchmark tests and speak to them about where they are and their goals. You then go away and work out what they need to achieve those goals. Every person is different, every one reacts to different stimulus in different ways so a good coach is not the one that gets it right first time, that's down to a bit of luck at times, but is a one that spots a trend and adapts to it.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow
A lot of food for thought here......

I think it was ttowel who said you have to accept that your coach knows more than you do.... I've no doubt they all do... but one who knows more about you and how you perform must be a huge training asset.
I guess that only comes with time, trust, results and a good dose of trial and error.

There are none local to me I have heard of.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
you have to accept that your coach knows more than you do.... I've no doubt they all do... but one who knows more about you and how you perform must be a huge training asset.
I guess that only comes with time, trust, results and a good dose of trial and error.


Well, that really depends. Triathlon has a huge spectrum of coaching 'talent' and experience. I'm pretty certain anyone on this Forum would be looking in the right direction. However, there are plenty of 'cornflake packet' coaches out there who've done a BTF L1 course, and think they're Mr Miyagi. We have loads of people put through the L1 course in the Forces every year, and some of them are lucky if they've done 5 events; they're just gagging to get a piece of paper to wave about.

I was at my local pool last week, and there was an old guy coaching a lady; there was another guy watching him from the deck (not sure if he was assessing him as a coach). Anyway, this guy has appalling technique, and he was telling her to 'copy him'....his arm was so far across the centreline when he pulled, he was rotating his body massively; legs of lead etc. The woman he was advising had a way better technique. Maybe she was just there for him to practice his patter on Laughing

Reputation & results is the best way to select.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


Not sure I entirely agree but yes with swimming squad I generally have them doing polarised work at this time of year whilst working on individual technique along the way. They will all do a lot of short distance short turnaround working on DPS no matter what level but I think it stops there. Bike really depends, juniors or adults racing draft legal is all about training them to be cyclists, a tri is a crit now days at elite level so they need to be used to riding hard, with massive power spikes, and recovering at tempo, more work in groups at the track so they are used to being in a fast moving pack and lots more skills work at the velodrome. They need to work on high cadence also so lots of roller work, but an adult doing IM, will be a lot more strength work at this time of year, no need to do massive amounts of bike skills unless they really are poor. Run again is very individual. someone with no running background might run 6 days a week , even for 10 minutes some days, where as the kid I have running sub 15 standalone is working on strength endurance so that he is capable of running that off the bike and will be competitive in next 2 years at Junior nats and hopefully worlds. It really isn't about having a philosophy in that sense. My philosophy is train the individual and most decent coaches would be very similar in their outlook.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


Not sure I entirely agree but yes with swimming squad I generally have them doing polarised work at this time of year whilst working on individual technique along the way. They will all do a lot of short distance short turnaround working on DPS no matter what level but I think it stops there. Bike really depends, juniors or adults racing draft legal is all about training them to be cyclists, a tri is a crit now days at elite level so they need to be used to riding hard, with massive power spikes, and recovering at tempo, more work in groups at the track so they are used to being in a fast moving pack and lots more skills work at the velodrome. They need to work on high cadence also so lots of roller work, but an adult doing IM, will be a lot more strength work at this time of year, no need to do massive amounts of bike skills unless they really are poor. Run again is very individual. someone with no running background might run 6 days a week , even for 10 minutes some days, where as the kid I have running sub 15 standalone is working on strength endurance so that he is capable of running that off the bike and will be competitive in next 2 years at Junior nats and hopefully worlds. It really isn't about having a philosophy in that sense. My philosophy is train the individual and most decent coaches would be very similar in their outlook.

Fair enough. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of "a philosophy" for, say, IM training. So whilst the experience, background, and current strengths of individual athletes will impact the precise sessions, the general structure around how they build towards an IM distance race might be fundamentally built off the same foundations.

Totally agree that coaching someone in draft legal elite races will be entirely different to a long course athlete, but then that's just a separate "philosophy" for each type of event/discipline.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lesson one Daniel Son: an empty vessel makes most noise, stop going on social media groups.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


Not sure I entirely agree but yes with swimming squad I generally have them doing polarised work at this time of year whilst working on individual technique along the way. They will all do a lot of short distance short turnaround working on DPS no matter what level but I think it stops there. Bike really depends, juniors or adults racing draft legal is all about training them to be cyclists, a tri is a crit now days at elite level so they need to be used to riding hard, with massive power spikes, and recovering at tempo, more work in groups at the track so they are used to being in a fast moving pack and lots more skills work at the velodrome. They need to work on high cadence also so lots of roller work, but an adult doing IM, will be a lot more strength work at this time of year, no need to do massive amounts of bike skills unless they really are poor. Run again is very individual. someone with no running background might run 6 days a week , even for 10 minutes some days, where as the kid I have running sub 15 standalone is working on strength endurance so that he is capable of running that off the bike and will be competitive in next 2 years at Junior nats and hopefully worlds. It really isn't about having a philosophy in that sense. My philosophy is train the individual and most decent coaches would be very similar in their outlook.

Fair enough. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of "a philosophy" for, say, IM training. So whilst the experience, background, and current strengths of individual athletes will impact the precise sessions, the general structure around how they build towards an IM distance race might be fundamentally built off the same foundations.

Totally agree that coaching someone in draft legal elite races will be entirely different to a long course athlete, but then that's just a separate "philosophy" for each type of event/discipline.


Yes it is a good point. Take 4 IM athletes then they will all have different plans and targets but some sessions may be similarly structured, but Im not sure that constitutes a philosophy. ie all will do big gear work to build strength endurance at some point, all will run a lot of hills for long runs, off road, but frequency and length of sessions will be very individual. A guy aiming for flat Euro draft fest will spend more time down on bars in a big gear on a TT course, guy doing Wales would be sent out into technical countryside so they get practice at climbing and descending on the long rides. I suppose you could say that's a philosophy, that I believe the strongest athlete wins at IM. Its about not how fast you go, but how little you slow down but every individual gets to their goal a different way and from a different start point.
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any choice would be based on experience and results in coaching "Ok" Age groupers over the longer distances.

I know enough to go a bit faster, but some guidance and motivation would be most welcome.
Cost wise every bike I look at is 5K plus... will it give me more mins than a coach..... I very much doubt it.
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