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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


Not sure I entirely agree but yes with swimming squad I generally have them doing polarised work at this time of year whilst working on individual technique along the way. They will all do a lot of short distance short turnaround working on DPS no matter what level but I think it stops there. Bike really depends, juniors or adults racing draft legal is all about training them to be cyclists, a tri is a crit now days at elite level so they need to be used to riding hard, with massive power spikes, and recovering at tempo, more work in groups at the track so they are used to being in a fast moving pack and lots more skills work at the velodrome. They need to work on high cadence also so lots of roller work, but an adult doing IM, will be a lot more strength work at this time of year, no need to do massive amounts of bike skills unless they really are poor. Run again is very individual. someone with no running background might run 6 days a week , even for 10 minutes some days, where as the kid I have running sub 15 standalone is working on strength endurance so that he is capable of running that off the bike and will be competitive in next 2 years at Junior nats and hopefully worlds. It really isn't about having a philosophy in that sense. My philosophy is train the individual and most decent coaches would be very similar in their outlook.

Fair enough. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of "a philosophy" for, say, IM training. So whilst the experience, background, and current strengths of individual athletes will impact the precise sessions, the general structure around how they build towards an IM distance race might be fundamentally built off the same foundations.

Totally agree that coaching someone in draft legal elite races will be entirely different to a long course athlete, but then that's just a separate "philosophy" for each type of event/discipline.


Yes it is a good point. Take 4 IM athletes then they will all have different plans and targets but some sessions may be similarly structured, but Im not sure that constitutes a philosophy. ie all will do big gear work to build strength endurance at some point, all will run a lot of hills for long runs, off road, but frequency and length of sessions will be very individual. A guy aiming for flat Euro draft fest will spend more time down on bars in a big gear on a TT course, guy doing Wales would be sent out into technical countryside so they get practice at climbing and descending on the long rides. I suppose you could say that's a philosophy, that I believe the strongest athlete wins at IM. Its about not how fast you go, but how little you slow down but every individual gets to their goal a different way and from a different start point.


Not 'generic' maybe, but you have just described a training plan you would give to a hypothetical athlete you have never met, so you have a structure you apply to given athletes in given situations. My judgement is that this is not where the coach adds value, a half decent software algorithm could ask the right questions and produce a schedule that specifies lots of hilly rides for IM Wales, or more swimming bias for a novice swimmer. But it is the feedback and adjustments through the weeks, months, years of training where the coach surely adds value, able to learn how their athlete responds to different stimuli and adapt accordingly.

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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


Not sure I entirely agree but yes with swimming squad I generally have them doing polarised work at this time of year whilst working on individual technique along the way. They will all do a lot of short distance short turnaround working on DPS no matter what level but I think it stops there. Bike really depends, juniors or adults racing draft legal is all about training them to be cyclists, a tri is a crit now days at elite level so they need to be used to riding hard, with massive power spikes, and recovering at tempo, more work in groups at the track so they are used to being in a fast moving pack and lots more skills work at the velodrome. They need to work on high cadence also so lots of roller work, but an adult doing IM, will be a lot more strength work at this time of year, no need to do massive amounts of bike skills unless they really are poor. Run again is very individual. someone with no running background might run 6 days a week , even for 10 minutes some days, where as the kid I have running sub 15 standalone is working on strength endurance so that he is capable of running that off the bike and will be competitive in next 2 years at Junior nats and hopefully worlds. It really isn't about having a philosophy in that sense. My philosophy is train the individual and most decent coaches would be very similar in their outlook.

Fair enough. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of "a philosophy" for, say, IM training. So whilst the experience, background, and current strengths of individual athletes will impact the precise sessions, the general structure around how they build towards an IM distance race might be fundamentally built off the same foundations.

Totally agree that coaching someone in draft legal elite races will be entirely different to a long course athlete, but then that's just a separate "philosophy" for each type of event/discipline.


Yes it is a good point. Take 4 IM athletes then they will all have different plans and targets but some sessions may be similarly structured, but Im not sure that constitutes a philosophy. ie all will do big gear work to build strength endurance at some point, all will run a lot of hills for long runs, off road, but frequency and length of sessions will be very individual. A guy aiming for flat Euro draft fest will spend more time down on bars in a big gear on a TT course, guy doing Wales would be sent out into technical countryside so they get practice at climbing and descending on the long rides. I suppose you could say that's a philosophy, that I believe the strongest athlete wins at IM. Its about not how fast you go, but how little you slow down but every individual gets to their goal a different way and from a different start point.


Not 'generic' maybe, but you have just described a training plan you would give to a hypothetical athlete you have never met, so you have a structure you apply to given athletes in given situations. My judgement is that this is not where the coach adds value, a half decent software algorithm could ask the right questions and produce a schedule that specifies lots of hilly rides for IM Wales, or more swimming bias for a novice swimmer. But it is the feedback and adjustments through the weeks, months, years of training where the coach surely adds value, able to learn how their athlete responds to different stimuli and adapt accordingly.

--


I haven't described a training plan at all let alone to give to a hypothetical athlete. If you think that constitutes a training plan and that one can be knocked up in a 5 minute post them you have a vastly different interpretation of a plan to me.
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grissom




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100 does seem steep - I pay nearly half that for a plan delivered through training peaks that is adjusted weekly based on how I'm performing/feeling etc - also includes watt bike test every couple of months.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grissom wrote:
100 does seem steep


You're paying handsomely for the Mark Allen reputation, no doubt.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does Brett Sutton do? He throws a dozen eggs at the wall, and one generally bouces off; much like the former eastern bloc methods. His methods & approach are also 'no BS' and whilst that might sound appealing, it does again mean that a lot of eggs will break, but you won't hear about those eggs.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I would never have a generic plan, even as a base but you do have a basic idea of things that need to be done for all athletes, especially over winter.

I think "generic plan" is probably oversimplifying things, but I think it's fair to say that most coaches will have a philosophy that they look to implement with almost all their athletes. How this is actually achieved will vary person to person, based on background, training history, goals, etc, but that underlying philosophy can probably be seen throughout the sessions various athletes of the same coach are doing.


i doubt many coaches could understand their own philosophy let alone articulate it...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Mungo wrote:
you have to accept that your coach knows more than you do.... I've no doubt they all do... but one who knows more about you and how you perform must be a huge training asset.
I guess that only comes with time, trust, results and a good dose of trial and error.


Well, that really depends. Triathlon has a huge spectrum of coaching 'talent' and experience. I'm pretty certain anyone on this Forum would be looking in the right direction. However, there are plenty of 'cornflake packet' coaches out there who've done a BTF L1 course, and think they're Mr Miyagi. We have loads of people put through the L1 course in the Forces every year, and some of them are lucky if they've done 5 events; they're just gagging to get a piece of paper to wave about.

I was at my local pool last week, and there was an old guy coaching a lady; there was another guy watching him from the deck (not sure if he was assessing him as a coach). Anyway, this guy has appalling technique, and he was telling her to 'copy him'....his arm was so far across the centreline when he pulled, he was rotating his body massively; legs of lead etc. The woman he was advising had a way better technique. Maybe she was just there for him to practice his patter on Laughing

Reputation & results is the best way to select.


the depth of knowledge required to facilitate training isn't that great, but to make the best use of an athlete's ability to achieve potential the applied use of knowledge is vast...therefore, it is not necessarily that the coach knows more than the athlete, but the coach has time to apply the knowledge and interpret the data and feedback appropriately...

there's no useful data on a minimum number of events as an athlete equating to coaching competency...

edited for b above
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Last edited by explorerJC on Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
What does Brett Sutton do? He throws a dozen eggs at the wall, and one generally bouces off; much like the former eastern bloc methods. His methods & approach are also 'no BS' and whilst that might sound appealing, it does again mean that a lot of eggs will break, but you won't hear about those eggs.


the training is also very non individualised (except perhaps at the very pointy end)....but, what he does do better than most is understand the long game...
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mortirolo




Joined: 21 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found in a previous sport when I was young (tennis), that coaches helped but at the end of the day it's the individual athlete who best knows what's best for him/her, technique is great plus from a coach, some worked some didn't even if the regime was tried again and again. Data, anyone can pull that off and analyse sensibly, like Golden Cheetah is an example or WKO4.

I always found either a ex-long time professional or a proven reputable coach was the only gains I had, others were a waste and there weren't really that interested other than getting their pay cheque. That's why I'm weary of Training Peaks, but I'm sure it's a great start and a great help as a base for improvement for thousands of triathletes.

100 pm you are paying partly for the MA reputation and name for sure, but he is the greatest endurance athlete of all time (probably) and masses of real experience unlike someone who has had a coaching degree but a 100pm coach from a long way away is an issue for me. I like seeing someone face to face.
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PhilleusPhogg




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First came across Mark Allen in the Lore of Running book by Noakes which had an interesting chapter all about the training regimes of various greats from the running world, plus some guy who did Ironman (whatever that was!).

I remember this quote stood out when I first read it: "This period of training is, in my view, the most taxing training ever recorded by any modern human athlete"

Anyway - if anyone's interested I found the excerpt, gives a nice background on his methodology towards the end:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Mark_Allen_/_Maffetone_/_Low_HR_training_%96_lengthy_excerpt_from_Noakes_Lore_of_Running_P2182666/
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortirolo wrote:
I found in a previous sport when I was young (tennis), that coaches helped but at the end of the day it's the individual athlete who best knows what's best for him/her, technique is great plus from a coach, some worked some didn't even if the regime was tried again and again. Data, anyone can pull that off and analyse sensibly, like Golden Cheetah is an example or WKO4.

I always found either a ex-long time professional or a proven reputable coach was the only gains I had, others were a waste and there weren't really that interested other than getting their pay cheque. That's why I'm weary of Training Peaks, but I'm sure it's a great start and a great help as a base for improvement for thousands of triathletes.

100 pm you are paying partly for the MA reputation and name for sure, but he is the greatest endurance athlete of all time (probably) and masses of real experience unlike someone who has had a coaching degree but a 100pm coach from a long way away is an issue for me. I like seeing someone face to face.


The trouble is 100 doesn't buy much face time with a decent coach
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mortirolo




Joined: 21 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
mortirolo wrote:
I found in a previous sport when I was young (tennis), that coaches helped but at the end of the day it's the individual athlete who best knows what's best for him/her, technique is great plus from a coach, some worked some didn't even if the regime was tried again and again. Data, anyone can pull that off and analyse sensibly, like Golden Cheetah is an example or WKO4.

I always found either a ex-long time professional or a proven reputable coach was the only gains I had, others were a waste and there weren't really that interested other than getting their pay cheque. That's why I'm weary of Training Peaks, but I'm sure it's a great start and a great help as a base for improvement for thousands of triathletes.

100 pm you are paying partly for the MA reputation and name for sure, but he is the greatest endurance athlete of all time (probably) and masses of real experience unlike someone who has had a coaching degree but a 100pm coach from a long way away is an issue for me. I like seeing someone face to face.


The trouble is 100 doesn't buy much face time with a decent coach



Exactly!
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mortirolo




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilleusPhogg wrote:
First came across Mark Allen in the Lore of Running book by Noakes which had an interesting chapter all about the training regimes of various greats from the running world, plus some guy who did Ironman (whatever that was!).

I remember this quote stood out when I first read it: "This period of training is, in my view, the most taxing training ever recorded by any modern human athlete"

Anyway - if anyone's interested I found the excerpt, gives a nice background on his methodology towards the end:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Mark_Allen_/_Maffetone_/_Low_HR_training_%96_lengthy_excerpt_from_Noakes_Lore_of_Running_P2182666/


Fantastic and intriguing article. Thanks!
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Lore wrote:
During this period of training, he was swimming 21 km per week, cycling 500 km per week, and running for 6 hours (approximately 90 km) per week. Thus, his total endurance training time was about 27 hours per week during this period. Allen would also undertake two strength training workouts each week but would always leave at least two clays between sessions.


Take away from this is his easy runs were still 15kph average and he was swimming,cycling and running more a week than some AG'ers do a month.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
The Lore wrote:
During this period of training, he was swimming 21 km per week, cycling 500 km per week, and running for 6 hours (approximately 90 km) per week. Thus, his total endurance training time was about 27 hours per week during this period. Allen would also undertake two strength training workouts each week but would always leave at least two clays between sessions.


Take away from this is his easy runs were still 15kph average and he was swimming,cycling and running more a week than some AG'ers do a month.


Aerobic runs down to 3:19/km Laughing He must have to have done the same routes continuously too, to ensure the pace vs HR was consistent over time, and he knew when he hit the plateau. Those peak weeks (or Push Phase) of 38h! You'd have to live somewhere nice to put those hours in on the road & trails without being bored to death. I guess Boulder ticked the boxes.
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