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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Spain already has 40% youth unemployment rate from the EU, what more could they want?


'from the EU' ?

How does the EU force Spain to keep 40% of its youth unemployed ?

It'll be a lot worse in Europe when the UK leaves the EU as the remaining EU states will have nowhere to absorb a high percentage of their unemployed youth. Then the faeces will really hit the rotating machinery.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Spain already has 40% youth unemployment rate from the EU, what more could they want?


'from the EU' ?

How does the EU force Spain to keep 40% of its youth unemployed ?

It'll be a lot worse in Europe when the UK leaves the EU as the remaining EU states will have nowhere to absorb a high percentage of their unemployed youth. Then the faeces will really hit the rotating machinery.


it doesn't, but they are wrapped in in a failing economic region and unable to control their own currency....

and yes, with Brexit there will be much more pressure on the few contributing EU nations...hopefully Britain will have enough sense to provide direct aid..
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
it doesn't, but they are wrapped in in a failing economic region and unable to control their own currency....

and yes, with Brexit there will be much more pressure on the few contributing EU nations...hopefully Britain will have enough sense to provide direct aid..


Currency movement wouldn't help youth unemployment much in a country with little in the way of an industrial economy though.

I somehow doubt the UK will be willing to provide direct aid to country determined to steal Gibraltar despite having given up those rights centuries ago and unless the EU cuts a really advantageous deal, there will be no appetite in the UK for bailing out any par of the EU.

Why on earth would the UK even consider bailing out any part of a region which refuses to do it itself ?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
it doesn't, but they are wrapped in in a failing economic region and unable to control their own currency....

and yes, with Brexit there will be much more pressure on the few contributing EU nations...hopefully Britain will have enough sense to provide direct aid..


Currency movement wouldn't help youth unemployment much in a country with little in the way of an industrial economy though.

I somehow doubt the UK will be willing to provide direct aid to country determined to steal Gibraltar despite having given up those rights centuries ago and unless the EU cuts a really advantageous deal, there will be no appetite in the UK for bailing out any par of the EU.

Why on earth would the UK even consider bailing out any part of a region which refuses to do it itself ?


they have certainly spent way beyond their means...

we will need to help a lot of countries in the foreseeable future...irrespective of past histories...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
we will need to help a lot of countries in the foreseeable future...irrespective of past histories...


Not sure you'll have much support for the 'we' bit.

There are a lot more deserving causes and countries than European ones IMO.

And charity starts at home so lets get the UK sorted before handing out cash to people who had it, but went on a spending spree with the Euro credit card eh ?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
we will need to help a lot of countries in the foreseeable future...irrespective of past histories...


Not sure you'll have much support for the 'we' bit.

There are a lot more deserving causes and countries than European ones IMO.

And charity starts at home so lets get the UK sorted before handing out cash to people who had it, but went on a spending spree with the Euro credit card eh ?


Well, I'm only British by passport, so I don't share the nationalism of some or the need to prioritise any nation above another...but we are going to need all the friends we can get to sort the current mess out....
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Well, I'm only British by passport, so I don't share the nationalism of some or the need to prioritise any nation above another...but we are going to need all the friends we can get to sort the current mess out....


Its not nationalism to say you look after your own people in preference over other countries. Its just common sense. You might actually might want to start prioritising your host country as you're not going to make this a permanent home if you keep giving away your money to other countries who are unwilling to sort themselves out and actually pay their way.

Sure we will need friends but as we will not be allowed to have a direct relationship with Spain, rather than the EU as a whole, there's no way any politician is going to suggest giving any European country a single Euro as long as the other EU members don't sort out their own mess. Frankly it is a rather silly suggestion - there are dozens of better countries to help out than Spain.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Well, I'm only British by passport, so I don't share the nationalism of some or the need to prioritise any nation above another...but we are going to need all the friends we can get to sort the current mess out....


Its not nationalism to say you look after your own people in preference over other countries. Its just common sense. You might actually might want to start prioritising your host country as you're not going to make this a permanent home if you keep giving away your money to other countries who are unwilling to sort themselves out and actually pay their way.

Sure we will need friends but as we will not be allowed to have a direct relationship with Spain, rather than the EU as a whole, there's no way any politician is going to suggest giving any European country a single Euro as long as the other EU members don't sort out their own mess. Frankly it is a rather silly suggestion - there are dozens of better countries to help out than Spain.


Indeed it is nationalism, it is just nationalism gets a bad press these days...

i am not anti nationalist per se, i do get the general point about looking after ones own first, i just don't have an emotional tie to this place. What i do have is a great respect and understanding of this particular democracy and its importance. i have seen many countries fighting for what we are trying to give away.

i value Spain no highly than any other, but when the EU fails as it surely will, they, amongst others will need support...

I hadn't intended writing a list of priorities, but if i did, no, Spain probably wouldn't be at the top 9although i have some connection with the Iberian peninsula
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bailing out a European country?

Very Happy

Schadenfreude springs to mind.

Seriously, though, the UK probably would step up to the plate because that's the sort of country we are. Rightly or wrongly.

I, personally, profoundly disagree with our International Aid budget. As Graham above, charity begins at home.

Most especially when we're borrowing the money that we're then giving away!
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
Bailing out a European country?

Very Happy

Schadenfreude springs to mind.

Seriously, though, the UK probably would step up to the plate because that's the sort of country we are. Rightly or wrongly.

I, personally, profoundly disagree with our International Aid budget. As Graham above, charity begins at home.

Most especially when we're borrowing the money that we're then giving away!


absolutely...it's more than schadenfreude though, it's also one upmanship....

some of the aid currently given is in apology and some is so that they can buy military kit from us....and some is simply because if you don't help up front, you generally end up bailing them out later on...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

Indeed it is nationalism, it is just nationalism gets a bad press these days...
nationalism isnít in itself the problem, being a Scotsman I am very proud of my country. The problem comes when you live in the past and donít walk forwards with the times.

If you take nationism to itís extremes you could argue that the MacDonalds should still be against the Campbells. Ok probably a bad example.



Quote:

i am not anti nationalist per se, i do get the general point about looking after ones own first
but in England at least (Scotland has the courage to stand up and say this is wrong) we are, and have been since Cameron, causing harm to the vulnerable and disadvantaged in society, ask any number of charities and even a dozen Tory MPs now who realise the consequences of their past actions (however well intentioned). When you get past the Prime Ministers good words, we are still injecting fear, poverty, homelessness, consequent Iíll health, despair etc on our most vulnerable. Having lived with this first hand I directly know the fear that has been injected eg into my wife.

We are not looking after our own anymore, we are destroying them.

Which sort of places me in a difficult position, as conceptually I agree with government policy, I am just disgusted at some of the rules and at how it has been implemented. But then again I am seeing the consequences first hand.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is hardly unique to Cameron...
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:

but in England at least (Scotland has the courage to stand up and say this is wrong) we are, and have been since Cameron, causing harm to the vulnerable and disadvantaged in society, ask any number of charities and even a dozen Tory MPs now who realise the consequences of their past actions (however well intentioned). When you get past the Prime Ministers good words, we are still injecting fear, poverty, homelessness, consequent Iíll health, despair etc on our most vulnerable. Having lived with this first hand I directly know the fear that has been injected eg into my wife.

We are not looking after our own anymore, we are destroying them.

Which sort of places me in a difficult position, as conceptually I agree with government policy, I am just disgusted at some of the rules and at how it has been implemented. But then again I am seeing the consequences first hand.


No Sloggers - I disagree with you on this.

The 'disadvantaged' in society have always existed since there have been human beings on this planet. It's all relative.

It's become the trendy narrative to blame the 'Tories' for making life miserable for this Class. That's nonsense. They're just tackling things differently to the Left. As a generalisation, the philosophy of the Right is to create opportunity for them to lift themselves out of their situation - giving them a choice.

The philosophy of the Left is just to throw money at them and give them no incentive to improve their situation.

I accept there are 'shades of grey' here but the principle is what I'm arguing.

Many of the 'disadvantaged' now still manage to have 40" TV's and drink alcohol when they want, have Sky TV subscriptions, smoke. The real 'disadvantaged' of this world are currently starving or freezing to death - so it's relative.

Now, I'm not a heartless b*stard and accept there is real hardship in our society (I get particularly angry at the wealth gap when we have people sleeping in cardboard boxes) - but firstly, blaming the Tories for this is just simply nonsense. Secondly, keep perspective - many 'disadvantaged' are actually better off than they were decades ago.

This 'fear' that you say has been 'injected' into the disadvantaged has been perpetuated by a very nasty Left wing movement; they are equally (and in my opinion more) to blame for the societal problems we have. Their method of tackling poverty works in the short term but long term makes it worse. The economics of the left - the 'magic money tree' - brings us all down to the lowest common denominator. As ever, it's the Right that are then left to try to pick up the pieces.

I get VERY tired of listening to the 'disadvantaged' blaming the Tories. Whilst I know many of these people are genuinely struggling - for which I have sympathy - but many are just a product of bad policy; they've become conditioned to accepting their situation, that it's easier to take the handouts and sit on their arses for the rest of their lives than actually try to improve their situation.

I know this, because I, too, have seen it first hand. A simple example - in my TA days I had some of the most disadvantaged lads from the 'sink-estates' in Leeds alongside me. Their domestic environments were SHOCKING (I regularly was invited back to their homes). They were working hard to better their lives, themselves. But their brothers who'd chosen not to do this, were actually proud of milking the system, of their criminal activities, of knowing they'll never bother getting a job like their father - it's become generationally ingrained into them that the system works for this lifestyle - they actually have a CHOICE to do this. A hundred or more years ago, truly disadvantaged people in our society didn't have this choice. If they didn't better themselves, they starved to death.

Don't get me started on the so-called 'Bedroom Tax' the left managed to spin into their ridiculous anti-Tory narrative- jeezus.

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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus

That is broadly consistent with my own view. The old system did trap you on benefits, trust me I know from first hand experience.

However the government have used a piledriver to crack a nut. Along the way they have broken people, my wife for example has been living in quite extreme fear for five years or so now. When you are chronically ill and disabled the effects can be devastating. Fortunately at least my Tory MP agrees with me on one specific ďimpossible positionĒ that they have placed me in.

As I noted above Gus, itís some of the rules and the implementation that are the problems, not the concept.


As a complete aside, and folks please donít have a go at me here, but this is perhaps the best place that I can ask this question. I will be brief. Just take a deep breath and answer if you can add value.

This is way more theoretical that Submarine Locating just now, and if I decide to pursue it it is likely to take years of development.

Given satellite technologies and military drone use, is there still a place (and likely to be a place Some years down the road) for the special forces soldier to be scrawling maps of Ďfacilitiesí on bits of paper?

While my interest here is in the commercial world, this is an example that I have been using re one of my projects precisely because it is non commercial, and people in my hobby field seem to like spooks et all.

If I could develop a method of taking (someone not necessarily me, a spook) that scrawled Ďmapí and using that to help gain more intelligence on what is happening at that location. Would that have commercial value? (Thirty years ago pre current technologies certainly, but today and tomorrow?).

While this is still drawing board stuff that is a byproduct of what I am doing elsewhere, I am just curious if I could, one day, sell a robust tested etc method to the military. Itís a huge leap sideways, but think it worth asking the question.

And as some of you have been in the military, it is worth drawing on your experience. All I need is a simple, based on experience, yes or no.

Even if you think my approach to finding submarines etc is nuts, ultimately if it works..
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what additional intelligence would be available that isn't currently available by other means?
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