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Every man is a pervert
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Gus




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Every man is a pervert Reply with quote

I hope I didn't accidentally 'lightly brush my hand' against a woman's knee 20 years ago otherwise I'm in bother for sexual harrassment.

Discuss.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no doubt a lot of forms of harrassment or abuse were more prevalent in decades past, and still exist to a lesser extent now. Even recently I've been subject to behaviour in communual work areas in a 1-to-1 situation that would be considered creepy if it were a man talking to a woman and doubtless deemed inappropriate.

The issue really, is how do you prove misdeeds so far in the past (without physical evidence or witnesses), other than he said, she said? It seems like a very good way to smear someone, if you're that way inclined.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this has been known about for donkeys, itís just coming out now. People are evolving and no longer putting up with the darkness of power politics. Itís what happens when you (1) push people too far and when (2) those in power and the people evolve at increasingly divergent rates.

Anyhow, on the one hand it is good to stop abuses of power, yet on the other something that was entirely innocent could wreck a career or even be untrue.

Gus, you also need to look at this in context of what is happening in our society. People are evolving and expecting better leadership, while are increasing less willing to put up with past abuses of power. In Westminster I guess it started when those former sas soldiers whistle blew on the expenses scandal.

I have said it before our government is increasingly entering a phase of post Profumo like exhaustion. The odds on the government collapsing are improving, for this and other currently in the news stuff. (And yes I know labour are also affected).

Now consider it this way, does one law apply to politicians and another to you and me? Donít all say yes at once.

If they have broke the law, and subsequently perverted the course of justice, the police and cps will deal with them. And if they havenít they wonít.

For those MPs who have consensually had sex, thatís their business.


I will admit Gus, I have predicted that some MPs will face jail time (no idea which) due to their actions while in power, but I had thought that would have to do with welfare deaths or injecting fear into people (interestingly mi5s website definition of terrorism has changed to an explanation that in essence excludes government), but I now wonder if it could be because of rape? After all if that was proven.

Knowing how old school politicians can break you when you stand up to them (been there done that and got the t shirt) I just hope that the women with genuine cases have the courage to pursue it to the end, and have the support to deal with the inevitable pressure. Equally I hope that women who are simply seeking five minutes of fame reflect on the damage that it could do to those who may have been seriously abused.

Most importantly the vast bulk of people who simply keep quiet, need to support those who need it and not protect the guilty.

Times are changing.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a lot here to unpack. Assuming that we are just choosing to look at the unwelcome advance (of which there are plenty I am sure) and not other scenarios...much of this is wrapped up in evolutionary biology.

However, people aren't evolving that fast, socially possibly, but not biologically.

It is not that people desire better leadership, but that they desire more leadership. In fact, desire it or not, that is what we are getting and this is one of the reasons we are encountering problems.

We tend not to jail our politicians when they create illegal wars, so i can't see them jailing MPs for having policies however unwelcome. One or two may get thrown to the lions to keep the proles happy, of course. the police and CPS will only follow up the popularist ones, obviously.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Every man is a pervert Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
I hope I didn't accidentally 'lightly brush my hand' against a woman's knee 20 years ago otherwise I'm in bother for sexual harrassment.

Discuss.


the hollywood and sport ones are interesting in as much as if people hadn't put everyone on such a high pedestal in the first place then, of course, not only would the fall be less but the opportunity would have been far diminished...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.


bizarre that should even need to be stated
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.


bizarre that should even need to be stated
yet it does.

I will give May her dues here, though she should have acted a couple of months back when she was allegedly made aware and not waited until she was cornered.

Wonder who will be the sacrificial Profumo/Ward? this time around?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.


bizarre that should even need to be stated
yet it does.
?


why?
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awildt




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a woman and engineer, I obviously work in a very male dominated environments. None of this is new to me. But I also don't see the majority of it as sinister. If you're true to your morals and believe in yourself, a word to whoever may have "offended" you actually causes more embarrassment to the person who tried something than to the "victim."

A lot nowadays is women coming into the workplace that have been so protected in their lives up to that point, they believe they're god like and no one says a bad word. Wake up sunshine, it's a tough world out here, you need to prove your worth and fight for your place. Then there's the sector of jealous women who have never had any advances, so when one comes their way, they make a big thing about it.

There's also the generational issue. Men in their 50s and 60s now, started in engineering when there really were no women about. They could say and do what they liked. I don't condone it but it was definitely different times. A lot of them are struggling to catch up and realise it's a different world now. These are the guys that I feel sorry for, and I really give them the chance and say something to them if their behaviour or words are not appropriate - go back to my opening paragraph. But younger women immediately raise the red flag and cause distress for all involved.

My worst experiences have actually been from wives of colleagues. On a few occasions I have had evening phone calls from women accusing me of getting up to who knows what with their (fat, ugly) husband. Just because said husband has come home talking about "their colleague Jane" rather than "their colleague John."

It's a mad world. I think we are going a little over the top. As much as men need to look at their behaviour, women do too. Men think with a different brain, some get carried away, and women should understand this (maybe even empathetic). Taking a bit of responsibility for our own actions, and standing up for ourselves, would save a lot of this mess.

I don't condone assault or anything where physical force has been used. That is pure evil and that's where a woman is at a distinct disadvantage.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ejc, I misunderstood the precise context of your last comment, but it is clear now, but to answer anyway, because she is doing the right thing publicly, letís just hope she is also doing the right thing privately.

Her actions here could end up being the primary reason why an MP ends up in prison, if it gives a woman the confidence to do what she said.


I myself have stood up for women in the past and paid a heavy price for it (I took a man aside and asked him to stop verbally bullying a woman). The blowback can be devastating.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awildt wrote:
As a woman and engineer, I obviously work in a very male dominated environments. None of this is new to me. But I also don't see the majority of it as sinister. If you're true to your morals and believe in yourself, a word to whoever may have "offended" you actually causes more embarrassment to the person who tried something than to the "victim."

A lot nowadays is women coming into the workplace that have been so protected in their lives up to that point, they believe they're god like and no one says a bad word. Wake up sunshine, it's a tough world out here, you need to prove your worth and fight for your place. Then there's the sector of jealous women who have never had any advances, so when one comes their way, they make a big thing about it.

There's also the generational issue. Men in their 50s and 60s now, started in engineering when there really were no women about. They could say and do what they liked. I don't condone it but it was definitely different times. A lot of them are struggling to catch up and realise it's a different world now. These are the guys that I feel sorry for, and I really give them the chance and say something to them if their behaviour or words are not appropriate - go back to my opening paragraph. But younger women immediately raise the red flag and cause distress for all involved.

My worst experiences have actually been from wives of colleagues. On a few occasions I have had evening phone calls from women accusing me of getting up to who knows what with their (fat, ugly) husband. Just because said husband has come home talking about "their colleague Jane" rather than "their colleague John."

It's a mad world. I think we are going a little over the top. As much as men need to look at their behaviour, women do too. Men think with a different brain, some get carried away, and women should understand this (maybe even empathetic). Taking a bit of responsibility for our own actions, and standing up for ourselves, would save a lot of this mess.

I don't condone assault or anything where physical force has been used. That is pure evil and that's where a woman is at a distinct disadvantage.


That's a good post and i agree with the interpretation of the situation, both historic and recent. It is worth adding, however, that an early mild rebuke (public or otherwise) can help to diffuse the situation, but this only curbs the behaviour and does not necessarily resolve the problem.

A big issue today is that this is a topic that cannot be successfully debated as we inherit the US/Canadian problem of post modernism. However, discourse remains the only possible method of finding a solution.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
awildt wrote:
As a woman and engineer, I obviously work in a very male dominated environments. None of this is new to me. But I also don't see the majority of it as sinister. If you're true to your morals and believe in yourself, a word to whoever may have "offended" you actually causes more embarrassment to the person who tried something than to the "victim."

A lot nowadays is women coming into the workplace that have been so protected in their lives up to that point, they believe they're god like and no one says a bad word. Wake up sunshine, it's a tough world out here, you need to prove your worth and fight for your place. Then there's the sector of jealous women who have never had any advances, so when one comes their way, they make a big thing about it.

There's also the generational issue. Men in their 50s and 60s now, started in engineering when there really were no women about. They could say and do what they liked. I don't condone it but it was definitely different times. A lot of them are struggling to catch up and realise it's a different world now. These are the guys that I feel sorry for, and I really give them the chance and say something to them if their behaviour or words are not appropriate - go back to my opening paragraph. But younger women immediately raise the red flag and cause distress for all involved.

My worst experiences have actually been from wives of colleagues. On a few occasions I have had evening phone calls from women accusing me of getting up to who knows what with their (fat, ugly) husband. Just because said husband has come home talking about "their colleague Jane" rather than "their colleague John."

It's a mad world. I think we are going a little over the top. As much as men need to look at their behaviour, women do too. Men think with a different brain, some get carried away, and women should understand this (maybe even empathetic). Taking a bit of responsibility for our own actions, and standing up for ourselves, would save a lot of this mess.

I don't condone assault or anything where physical force has been used. That is pure evil and that's where a woman is at a distinct disadvantage.


That's a good post and i agree with the interpretation of the situation, both historic and recent. It is worth adding, however, that an early mild rebuke (public or otherwise) can help to diffuse the situation, but this only curbs the behaviour and does not necessarily resolve the problem.

A big issue today is that this is a topic that cannot be successfully debated as we inherit the US/Canadian problem of post modernism. However, discourse remains the only possible method of finding a solution.
Anazingly I agree with Ejc. It is a good post.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.


bizarre that should even need to be stated
yet it does.
?


why?


Because two things;

1. People who have held their tongue for years feel relief simply by airing their story

2. People are naive to libel and defamation law
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Just now on bbc, May tells women to go to the police.


bizarre that should even need to be stated
yet it does.
?


why?


Because two things;

1. People who have held their tongue for years feel relief simply by airing their story

2. People are naive to libel and defamation law


Why they have to be told they should go, not why they should go
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