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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listened to Chris Boardman on hardtalk (not that the title does the programme justice)...and, as much as I like him, he remains wonderfully evasive in his answers and the peleton...
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
In my experience, it's almost exclusively the fiftysomething males that never want to give-way to faster lane swimmers; I don't think it's a push to think they are the most prevalent demographic to dope either... where ego collides with ageing vs performance issues.

I obviously have zero data, and I'm just remote viewing this ( Wink ), but I would be surprised if this wasn't the biggest doping demographic.


Hmm, I'd probably put it at the 35+ range when some might think they need a bit extra to remain at their current abilities.

Being a bit naive again, but for Sutton to say they could get an extra 5% from a TUE is a massive gain at that kind of level, if he'd said .5 to 1% then maybe. But 5% is huge so either something really potent or slightly exagerated, albeit not very ethical either way.

The annoying bit with Sky was their original stance and rejecting riders like Miller that had a dodgy past.

Jeff


the Sutton thing is being misquoted and taken out of context. He actually said "If you've got an athlete that's 95% ready and that little 5% niggle or injury that's troubling them, if you can get the TUE to get them to 100%, of course you would in them days"

you have to realise this is an off the cuff comment also in an interview, probably with only that sentance being aired out of context. Its not scientific.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
JeffB wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
In my experience, it's almost exclusively the fiftysomething males that never want to give-way to faster lane swimmers; I don't think it's a push to think they are the most prevalent demographic to dope either... where ego collides with ageing vs performance issues.

I obviously have zero data, and I'm just remote viewing this ( Wink ), but I would be surprised if this wasn't the biggest doping demographic.


Hmm, I'd probably put it at the 35+ range when some might think they need a bit extra to remain at their current abilities.

Being a bit naive again, but for Sutton to say they could get an extra 5% from a TUE is a massive gain at that kind of level, if he'd said .5 to 1% then maybe. But 5% is huge so either something really potent or slightly exagerated, albeit not very ethical either way.

The annoying bit with Sky was their original stance and rejecting riders like Miller that had a dodgy past.

Jeff


the Sutton thing is being misquoted and taken out of context. He actually said "If you've got an athlete that's 95% ready and that little 5% niggle or injury that's troubling them, if you can get the TUE to get them to 100%, of course you would in them days"

you have to realise this is an off the cuff comment also in an interview, probably with only that sentance being aired out of context. Its not scientific.


he has had plenty of time to prepare that sentence, though...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Listened to Chris Boardman on hardtalk (not that the title does the programme justice)...and, as much as I like him, he remains wonderfully evasive in his answers and the peleton...


His career was during the height of the EPO era.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Listened to Chris Boardman on hardtalk (not that the title does the programme justice)...and, as much as I like him, he remains wonderfully evasive in his answers and the peleton...


His career was during the height of the EPO era.


indeed, but he remains remarkably vague about the doping going on around him...
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
JeffB wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
In my experience, it's almost exclusively the fiftysomething males that never want to give-way to faster lane swimmers; I don't think it's a push to think they are the most prevalent demographic to dope either... where ego collides with ageing vs performance issues.

I obviously have zero data, and I'm just remote viewing this ( Wink ), but I would be surprised if this wasn't the biggest doping demographic.


Hmm, I'd probably put it at the 35+ range when some might think they need a bit extra to remain at their current abilities.

Being a bit naive again, but for Sutton to say they could get an extra 5% from a TUE is a massive gain at that kind of level, if he'd said .5 to 1% then maybe. But 5% is huge so either something really potent or slightly exagerated, albeit not very ethical either way.

The annoying bit with Sky was their original stance and rejecting riders like Miller that had a dodgy past.

Jeff


the Sutton thing is being misquoted and taken out of context. He actually said "If you've got an athlete that's 95% ready and that little 5% niggle or injury that's troubling them, if you can get the TUE to get them to 100%, of course you would in them days"

you have to realise this is an off the cuff comment also in an interview, probably with only that sentence being aired out of context. Its not scientific.

I was thinking the same. If you precisely read what he's saying, he's suggesting the injury or niggle is preventing the athlete being at the "normal" 100% level. This then gets into the realm of blood spinning, where the argument for why that is legal as opposed to blood doping, is because it only accelerates recovery from injury ... it doesnt actually boost performance beyond what it would naturally be.

People claiming Sutton is suggesting "let's get everyone a TUE to boost their performance by 5%" is not what he actually said.

There's a follow on question about whether that 5% injury or niggle is just "par for the course" for a full time athlete, but that's where you have to put some level of trust in the TUE process that should be validating specific needs. If that process is open to abuse, then the authorities and the independent medics are the one's facilitating the use of unnecessary banned substances.

In the context of all the above, I can see how the timing of Wiggin's TUE's could have played out. He's got a 5% injury that he just trains through, and then gets the "treatment" just before a big event so psychologically it feels like a performance boost because he's become accustomed to training with the injury. Now I'd counter argue that he'd be able to train more effectively and raise his ceiling higher had he trained at 100% as well, so I don't quite buy it. And if he can train all year with said injury/issue, then does it really constitute something that should be getting a TUE. But that's again where the independent medical processes that form part of the TUE structure should be making the appropriate decisions.
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's where for me the process is poor not the athletes use of that process which may be morally questionable but perfectly legal. The question for the ADA's is should an illness be just something you deal with like most of the population, or a muscle injury that you use a painkiller for. Should a TUE to take a banned substance in extreme circumstances actually mean yes you can take this medication for this injury / sickness, but all the while its in your system you cant race. Pass a test and we reinstate your race licence. So the panel of Dr's are still required to confirm its ok before taking, they will then meet to decide when to allow you to start racing again. It makes it more likely that it is something you would only do when its absolutely necessary.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Listened to Chris Boardman on hardtalk (not that the title does the programme justice)...and, as much as I like him, he remains wonderfully evasive in his answers and the peleton...


His career was during the height of the EPO era.


indeed, but he remains remarkably vague about the doping going on around him...


Ulrich & Riis have come clean. Pantani lived & died by the sword. We know how the Lance thing went. Virenque & Festina caught off their tits on it. Indurain & Rominger....nice guys but deffo #notnormal. The list goes on....
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Listened to Chris Boardman on hardtalk (not that the title does the programme justice)...and, as much as I like him, he remains wonderfully evasive in his answers and the peleton...


His career was during the height of the EPO era.


indeed, but he remains remarkably vague about the doping going on around him...


Ulrich & Riis have come clean. Pantani lived & died by the sword. We know how the Lance thing went. Virenque & Festina caught off their tits on it. Indurain & Rominger....nice guys but deffo #notnormal. The list goes on....


he may well have been clean...and his performances would suggest so...or certainly clean of EPO...but he has not been critical of others...
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.

Apart from taking the moral high ground in a silly pub argument, or wanting a bit of virtue signalling, people must understand that the rules provide the framework for the battle and people will (and it is to be expected) do everything they can within the rules to win.

If bleeding heart Guardian reading types then bitch and moan they'll be some squirming and wriggling but inside they are not apologising.

The rules are set. The battle commences.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.

Apart from taking the moral high ground in a silly pub argument, or wanting a bit of virtue signalling, people must understand that the rules provide the framework for the battle and people will (and it is to be expected) do everything they can within the rules to win.

If bleeding heart Guardian reading types then bitch and moan they'll be some squirming and wriggling but inside they are not apologising.

The rules are set. The battle commences.


not outraged, just disappointed when people claim not to and then do...especially when they are using my money to do so...
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="explorerJC"]
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


not outraged, just disappointed when people claim not to and then do...especially when they are using my money to do so...


I don't think they did anything they said they wouldn't do.

Sure, there was a lot of implication when they started that they wouldn't even take a paracetamol (okay, I exaggerate but you get the gist) but they always really meant they would play within the rules. Which is what 'clean' and 'doping' are about, as they are only defined by the rules.

As for money, you don't have to play the lottery! Smile
(actually I'm not familiar with the minutiae of the funding streams but I think once your money is handed over the government you don't have much of a say other than once every four years.)
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


Because it's not actually within the rules, that's the point, it just can't be proven to be against the rules.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="tuckandgo"]
explorerJC wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


not outraged, just disappointed when people claim not to and then do...especially when they are using my money to do so...


I don't think they did anything they said they wouldn't do.

Sure, there was a lot of implication when they started that they wouldn't even take a paracetamol (okay, I exaggerate but you get the gist) but they always really meant they would play within the rules. Which is what 'clean' and 'doping' are about, as they are only defined by the rules.

As for money, you don't have to play the lottery! Smile
(actually I'm not familiar with the minutiae of the funding streams but I think once your money is handed over the government you don't have much of a say other than once every four years.)


oh, i think that they clearly have...and their lack of a reasonable answer is that they weren't expecting to get called out...

the funding comes from the lottery (not guilty), the government (no option) and the leftist tax (no option now)
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


Because it's not actually within the rules, that's the point, it just can't be proven to be against the rules.

But it is, in the TUE example at least. Teams and athletes can apply for TUEs all they want, but if independent medical practitioners don't validate the need, they don't get the TUE. If it's a prospective application, the athlete can't take the substance, if it's retrospective then any use will have breached the rules.

I agree with tuckandgo on the basic premise. Putting aside your moral views, and the fact we are talking about humans and the ethical aspects that entails, ultimately the rules around TUEs have been established and then it's up to the teams and athletes to achieve the best performance possible within those rules. It's no different from the rules establishing acceptable bike geometry, clothing, minimum bike weights, etc. Teams will push the boundaries where they can within the parameters defined, because at the elite level a 0.01% improvement can be the difference between winning and losing.
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