Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
No Sh1t sherlock...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> General
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JamieMcP




Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 4776
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Sky have a doping factory like Postal, I suspect not. Did they cheat, probably a little but no more I suspect than other teams. Did they hold themselves to the higher standard that they said they would. Certainly not. I think they operated like most professional sports, in the grey area.
_________________
Blogtastic My Athlinks PageTwitter

So many races so little time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8133
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


Because it's not actually within the rules, that's the point, it just can't be proven to be against the rules.

But it is, in the TUE example at least. Teams and athletes can apply for TUEs all they want, but if independent medical practitioners don't validate the need, they don't get the TUE.


No, because when you apply, you are stating that you have a medical need, if you do not actually have that medical need but are doing it for performance reasons, that is a violation.

Just like if you use a completely banned substance, but you're never caught, it's a violation.

(and the UCI during this period gave TUE's without independent medical practitioners, but a single person, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's validated in any way?)
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16483
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A top athlete has a chronic condition that means they're ill enough to need a TUE for a banned substance....then they go and win races. It's an abuse of the system which at the professional level is aided & abetted by doctors & officials.

If you're ill enough to have a genuine medical need for steriods, then arguably you shouldn't be racing.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....


Last edited by Jorgan on Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1347

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:

(and the UCI during this period gave TUE's without independent medical practitioners, but a single person, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's validated in any way?)

I'm unclear where I got that view from. I've just done a search, and I can't actually find out who's on the UKAD TUE Committee, or the UCI equivalent. I was certain I had read they included qualified medical professionals.

If I am wrong, then maybe that changes things a bit as it does open up potential for abuse of team physicians to fabricate need if there is no independent check the claims are medically logical. But the TUE Committee have ultimate approval of any TUE's granted, so again, if that Committee is not well governed, that's ultimately a governance failure. We wouldnt have a Finance Committee at work to consider particular topics without any qualified accountants on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14936
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


Because it's not actually within the rules, that's the point, it just can't be proven to be against the rules.

But it is, in the TUE example at least. Teams and athletes can apply for TUEs all they want, but if independent medical practitioners don't validate the need, they don't get the TUE.
.


independent from whom?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14936
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
jibberjim wrote:

(and the UCI during this period gave TUE's without independent medical practitioners, but a single person, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's validated in any way?)

I'm unclear where I got that view from. I've just done a search, and I can't actually find out who's on the UKAD TUE Committee, or the UCI equivalent. I was certain I had read they included qualified medical professionals.

If I am wrong, then maybe that changes things a bit as it does open up potential for abuse of team physicians to fabricate need if there is no independent check the claims are medically logical. But the TUE Committee have ultimate approval of any TUE's granted, so again, if that Committee is not well governed, that's ultimately a governance failure. We wouldnt have a Finance Committee at work to consider particular topics without any qualified accountants on it.


don't forget that there is a huge potential flaw in the plan...

if the athlete needs treatment and the governing body says no, but the team still race the athlete and he does a Tommy, there is almost certainly some potential liability on the governing body and they simply do not have the funds to fight any claim through the courts....
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 309

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.


Because it's not actually within the rules, that's the point, it just can't be proven to be against the rules.



Errrr. Yes it is within the rules.

It is within the letter, but not the spirit, of the 'law'. (rules).
That was the point I was making. It IS in the rules. Those who think otherwise are getting confused. Gaming a system, but staying within it, is all part of sport.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 309

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jibberjim"][quote="stenard"]
jibberjim wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why there is so much outrage about sportsmen/women/teams doing everything they can within the rules to win.



No, because when you apply, you are stating that you have a medical need, if you do not actually have that medical need but are doing it for performance reasons, that is a violation.



Medical need isn't 0 or 1, black or white. It's grey, that's just the way it is.

Hey, I don't agree with TUE's in professional level sport, but I have no problem with athletes using them if they are allowed by the system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
he may well have been clean...and his performances would suggest so...or certainly clean of EPO...but he has not been critical of others...


I heard an interview with him a year or so ago, where he gave great credit to the GAP team manager. The team were basically told "there's a lot of crap going on in this sport, but I don't want it in my team, and if that means you lose every week then so be it." He said he was lucky that his 'job' was to win the prologue, and he could be competitive against the peleton in that one specific job because he sacrificed the chance to be competitive at anything else.

--
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14936
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
he may well have been clean...and his performances would suggest so...or certainly clean of EPO...but he has not been critical of others...


I heard an interview with him a year or so ago, where he gave great credit to the GAP team manager. The team were basically told "there's a lot of crap going on in this sport, but I don't want it in my team, and if that means you lose every week then so be it." He said he was lucky that his 'job' was to win the prologue, and he could be competitive against the peleton in that one specific job because he sacrificed the chance to be competitive at anything else.

--


that's probably the interview i heard...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16483
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ GAN team?
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
^^ GAN team?

Yeah probably. Shows that their marketing millions were wasted on me at least.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16483
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
^^ GAN team?

Yeah probably. Shows that their marketing millions were wasted on me at least.


No loss to you! Apparently they had a terrible reputation as an Insurer back in the day. French company.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blindcider




Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 232

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
A top athlete has a chronic condition that means they're ill enough to need a TUE for a banned substance....then they go and win races. It's an abuse of the system which at the professional level is aided & abetted by doctors & officials.

If you're ill enough to have a genuine medical need for steriods, then arguably you shouldn't be racing.


A slight aside; but Insulin requires a TUE and diabetes is a chronic condition. Are you suggesting diabetics shouldn't be allowed to compete?
_________________
2017 Races Green Man Ultra, Conti thunder Run (solo), Dart 10k swim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16483
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blindcider wrote:

A slight aside; but Insulin requires a TUE and diabetes is a chronic condition. Are you suggesting diabetics shouldn't be allowed to compete?


I was provoking debate Smile

The question is where do you draw the line? If world class athletes are winning big races on TUEs, you have to seriously ask if their health would really be that bad without them. They aren't using them to have a decent quality of life, they are using them to enhance their athletic performance at a world class level. Plain & simple.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> General All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.