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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 307

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Continuing the philosophical discussion.....

Two guys in the M55-59 AG.

Guy 1 has no declared medical conditions, but maybe his T levels have declined and it's affecting his performance; legally there's nothing he can do about it and he just cracks-on because that's the reality of ageing.

Guy 2 is competing on a TUE with a condition that has been registered for the last 20 years. The TUE for a banned PED has allowed them to race at a respectable and often competitive standard for those 20 years.

Guy 1 has never used a proscribed PED. Guy 2 has, for 20 years.

Guy 2 beats Guy 1 by five mins, and claims a prize.


Ignoring racing, that's a philosophical debate about medicine, where does one draw the line in the grey area between 'fixing what's broken' and 'enhancing what has declined'.

I have lots of doctor friends and this is quite a big one, particularly in the UK with regards to what the NHS should or shouldn't pay for. If you really want to light the fireworks you can start using fertility treatment as the example. (!)
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Continuing the philosophical discussion.....

Two guys in the M55-59 AG.

Guy 1 has no declared medical conditions, but maybe his T levels have declined and it's affecting his performance; legally there's nothing he can do about it and he just cracks-on because that's the reality of ageing.

Guy 2 is competing on a TUE with a condition that has been registered for the last 20 years. The TUE for a banned PED has allowed them to race at a respectable and often competitive standard for those 20 years.

Guy 1 has never used a proscribed PED. Guy 2 has, for 20 years.

Guy 2 beats Guy 1 by five mins, and claims a prize.


Ignoring racing, that's a philosophical debate about medicine, where does one draw the line in the grey area between 'fixing what's broken' and 'enhancing what has declined'.

I have lots of doctor friends and this is quite a big one, particularly in the UK with regards to what the NHS should or shouldn't pay for. If you really want to light the fireworks you can start using fertility treatment as the example. (!)


yep, it's a difficult conversation to have....apparently everyone has a right to pretty much everything these days...
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16481
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
that's a philosophical debate about medicine, where does one draw the line in the grey area between 'fixing what's broken' and 'enhancing what has declined'.

I have lots of doctor friends and this is quite a big one, particularly in the UK with regards to what the NHS should or shouldn't pay for. If you really want to light the fireworks you can start using fertility treatment as the example. (!)


Oh yeah, it's all a can of worms. Particularly procedures for conditions caused by poor lifestyle choices, and some cosmetic procedures.

Whilst I'm starting to sound like a DM reader, I can confirm that I listen to R4 news and voted Remain/LibDem Wink
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blindcider




Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 230

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Continuing the philosophical discussion.....

Two guys in the M55-59 AG.

Guy 1 has no declared medical conditions, but maybe his T levels have declined and it's affecting his performance; legally there's nothing he can do about it and he just cracks-on because that's the reality of ageing.

Guy 2 is competing on a TUE with a condition that has been registered for the last 20 years. The TUE for a banned PED has allowed them to race at a respectable and often competitive standard for those 20 years.

Guy 1 has never used a proscribed PED. Guy 2 has, for 20 years.

Guy 2 beats Guy 1 by five mins, and claims a prize.


Wouldn't Guy 2 also likely experience a declining T-level? It's not exactly comparing apples with apples
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 307

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Continuing the philosophical discussion.....

Two guys in the M55-59 AG.

Guy 1 has no declared medical conditions, but maybe his T levels have declined and it's affecting his performance; legally there's nothing he can do about it and he just cracks-on because that's the reality of ageing.

Guy 2 is competing on a TUE with a condition that has been registered for the last 20 years. The TUE for a banned PED has allowed them to race at a respectable and often competitive standard for those 20 years.

Guy 1 has never used a proscribed PED. Guy 2 has, for 20 years.

Guy 2 beats Guy 1 by five mins, and claims a prize.


Briefly returning to this. in 'guy 2' you are, or seem to be, making the assumption that the PED is responsible for his performance, as if they wouldn't achieve it otherwise. Whereas the idea (the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law as it were) is only to treat an illness or chronic condition as per normal medical practice, which happens to use a substance on the PED list.

If they weren't ill they should perform at the standard anyway. And if the 'substance' is taken in the correct medical dosage it may not actually enhance performance at all.

Appreciate there are a lot of moving factors, but that is kind of my point, it's grey and the only back and white is the rule (s).
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blindcider wrote:

Wouldn't Guy 2 also likely experience a declining T-level? It's not exactly comparing apples with apples


Take Testosterone decline out of the equation then. How would you feel if the person in front of you took the last prize/slot and they'd been on a TUE for years?

This sort of info isn't in the public domain afaik, but it would be interesting to see where athletes with TUEs finish in events.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
blindcider wrote:

Wouldn't Guy 2 also likely experience a declining T-level? It's not exactly comparing apples with apples


Take Testosterone decline out of the equation then. How would you feel if the person in front of you took the last prize/slot and they'd been on a TUE for years?

This sort of info isn't in the public domain afaik, but it would be interesting to see where athletes with TUEs finish in events.


At AG you'd never know as you only need a TUE if you are tested.
i.e. I don't get the document and the paperwork together for each event, you apply for one retrospectively.

I think this differs from the pros.

Also, lot's of people are on TUE stuff, particularly steroids (glucocorticoid, not anabolic) , in everyday life for some period of time or other, as they treat a lot of conditions. So far more common that you might think.

I don't believe ('count') T as this isn't fixing a medical illness.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16481
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:

I don't believe ('count') T as this isn't fixing a medical illness.


Yes, that's 'supplementing', but it's surprising how many guys try to convince themselves it's okay, because theirs is low & they're just leveling the field. I think it's way more prevalent in places like the US where Ageing Clinics are a growing business.

I'll come clean and say I rarely worry about what a cold/flu remedy contains, and I get tested at work for various stuff (recreational drugs, steriods & certain prescription drugs). Is Alka Seltzer on the banned list? Very Happy
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