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Brexit - seeing it from the other perspective
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:



Personally, my head says stay, but my heart says leave
.


my heart says stay, my head says leave...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Well, I just guess we will have to come back in 30 years' time and see.

Can we at least agree on tubs vs clinchers Graham? Smile


Yep, everyone else is wrong Very Happy

As an aside, every Eu citizen I meet (and I meet a lot, working for a global company) only has a single thought and that is 'but you will be worse off'.

I find this amazing as the UK is often talked about as being the most capitalist, least socialist part of Europe, yet all the EU can come up with is a capitalist argument.

I think that reflects the willingness of Europeans to surrender their sovereignty for an easier time (on the face of it) which will remain to be seen if being cowed by unelected bureaucrats and being told what to do 24/7 by foreigners is good thing or not. History suggests this leads to bad things.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
Well, I just guess we will have to come back in 30 years' time and see.

Can we at least agree on tubs vs clinchers Graham? Smile


Yep, everyone else is wrong Very Happy

As an aside, every Eu citizen I meet (and I meet a lot, working for a global company) only has a single thought and that is 'but you will be worse off'.

I find this amazing as the UK is often talked about as being the most capitalist, least socialist part of Europe, yet all the EU can come up with is a capitalist argument.

I think that reflects the willingness of Europeans to surrender their sovereignty for an easier time (on the face of it) which will remain to be seen if being cowed by unelected bureaucrats and being told what to do 24/7 by foreigners is good thing or not. History suggests this leads to bad things.


yes, left wing capitalists is a recent phenomena...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Maggie might have put it;

"the trouble with the EU is eventually it runs out of British money ..."

Very Happy
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
Well, I just guess we will have to come back in 30 years' time and see.

Can we at least agree on tubs vs clinchers Graham? Smile


Yep, everyone else is wrong Very Happy

I think that reflects the willingness of Europeans to surrender their sovereignty for an easier time (on the face of it) which will remain to be seen if being cowed by unelected bureaucrats and being told what to do 24/7 by foreigners is good thing or not. History suggests this leads to bad things.


My worry is that being outside the EU, we will have absolutely no representation within the European Parliament (made up of elected MEP's that we vote for; it's just that few people know or care much really about this level of European democracy) And we will have nowhere near as much influence as we have now or as much as we think we deserve.

guess I'm just a 'in the tent; pi$$ing out' kind of guy. Smile

And yes, everyone else is wrong. Smile
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More worringly, Brexit has put Theresa May is over a barrel when dealing with the US and a trade deal. Calling Trump out is a more risky business now, given his disposition.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
Well, I just guess we will have to come back in 30 years' time and see.

Can we at least agree on tubs vs clinchers Graham? Smile


Yep, everyone else is wrong Very Happy

I think that reflects the willingness of Europeans to surrender their sovereignty for an easier time (on the face of it) which will remain to be seen if being cowed by unelected bureaucrats and being told what to do 24/7 by foreigners is good thing or not. History suggests this leads to bad things.


My worry is that being outside the EU, we will have absolutely no representation within the European Parliament (made up of elected MEP's that we vote for; it's just that few people know or care much really about this level of European democracy) And we will have nowhere near as much influence as we have now or as much as we think we deserve.

. Smile


it's not really democratic though, is it?

policy is decided by executive fiat by the commission...as an example, in the commission, malta out vote GB 15 to 1 per capita....in the parliament, malta out vote GB 10 to 1 per capita...

call it democratic if you like but GB got rid of most of its rotten boroughs years ago...
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Gus




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
Well, I just guess we will have to come back in 30 years' time and see.

Can we at least agree on tubs vs clinchers Graham? Smile


Yep, everyone else is wrong Very Happy

I think that reflects the willingness of Europeans to surrender their sovereignty for an easier time (on the face of it) which will remain to be seen if being cowed by unelected bureaucrats and being told what to do 24/7 by foreigners is good thing or not. History suggests this leads to bad things.


My worry is that being outside the EU, we will have absolutely no representation within the European Parliament (made up of elected MEP's that we vote for; it's just that few people know or care much really about this level of European democracy) And we will have nowhere near as much influence as we have now or as much as we think we deserve.

. Smile


it's not really democratic though, is it?

policy is decided by executive fiat by the commission...as an example, in the commission, malta out vote GB 15 to 1 per capita....in the parliament, malta out vote GB 10 to 1 per capita...

call it democratic if you like but GB got rid of most of its rotten boroughs years ago...


And also we really need to wean ourselves off from the belief that we 'need' the EU. We don't have a say in the US, India, China's parliaments... so?

Yes the EU will hopefully be an important trading partner but we really need to get over the belief we need to still somehow be a part of it or we're finished. Let go of the teat, please!
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Gus




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
More worringly, Brexit has put Theresa May is over a barrel when dealing with the US and a trade deal. Calling Trump out is a more risky business now, given his disposition.


I mean seriously, May has now got to be one of the dumbest byatches I think I've ever seen in any position of responsibility.

Yey, let's take the brave step of standing alone on our own two feet at last... then let's punch the biggest boy in the playground in the face.

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

God, that woman.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupid ?

The only one with balls. You don't think that the Orangeutan can remember who said what a week later do you ? He's got the memory of a goldfish and the honour of a Essex girl (sorry to the Essex ladies out there but you do have a certain reputation)

The orange chimp will be gone in a few years at the most and the majority of voters will remember that she didn't take any sh*t from Trump. the 25% who voted for 'anyone but Hillary' will return to vote democrat and the GOP will be toast on 35%.

Anyone who doesnt stand up to Trump now, will be dead meat when he's gone.
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Gus




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Stupid ?

The only one with balls. You don't think that the Orangeutan can remember who said what a week later do you ? He's got the memory of a goldfish and the honour of a Essex girl (sorry to the Essex ladies out there but you do have a certain reputation)

The orange chimp will be gone in a few years at the most and the majority of voters will remember that she didn't take any sh*t from Trump. the 25% who voted for 'anyone but Hillary' will return to vote democrat and the GOP will be toast on 35%.

Anyone who doesnt stand up to Trump now, will be dead meat when he's gone.


Nope, I think you seriously underestimate him and his support.

He is profoundly popular in the US - don't confuse nasty noise in the mainstream media for unpopularity. He's well and truly stuck a very large stick into the US cosy liberal establishment and they hate it, but a lot of the US population (clearly) love it - the more he makes the Democrats angry, the more popular he becomes.

Likewise over here, don't assume he's unpopular. His views represent a large percentage of this population's view too - which is not represented by any of the our Establishment politicians. The rise of Britain First is not by chance.

And I stand by what I said, May is profoundly stupid. She may have shown 'balls' to stand up to him, but on a stupid point where, actually, a large part of her voter based agree more with Trump than her about. You only need to read the overwhelming number of comments in all the Tory press to realise that. She is toast, and rightly so.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
Stupid ?

The only one with balls. You don't think that the Orangeutan can remember who said what a week later do you ? He's got the memory of a goldfish and the honour of a Essex girl (sorry to the Essex ladies out there but you do have a certain reputation)

The orange chimp will be gone in a few years at the most and the majority of voters will remember that she didn't take any sh*t from Trump. the 25% who voted for 'anyone but Hillary' will return to vote democrat and the GOP will be toast on 35%.

Anyone who doesnt stand up to Trump now, will be dead meat when he's gone.


Nope, I think you seriously underestimate him and his support.

He is profoundly popular in the US - don't confuse nasty noise in the mainstream media for unpopularity. He's well and truly stuck a very large stick into the US cosy liberal establishment and they hate it, but a lot of the US population (clearly) love it - the more he makes the Democrats angry, the more popular he becomes.

Likewise over here, don't assume he's unpopular. His views represent a large percentage of this population's view too - which is not represented by any of the our Establishment politicians. The rise of Britain First is not by chance.

And I stand by what I said, May is profoundly stupid. She may have shown 'balls' to stand up to him, but on a stupid point where, actually, a large part of her voter based agree more with Trump than her about. You only need to read the overwhelming number of comments in all the Tory press to realise that. She is toast, and rightly so.


Obama was toast when he chose not to call out extreme islam for what it is, so the tango man appeals to many in the US, he also appeals to the ethnic minority who wish to move up the social ladder and to the white working class who don't register on the victim scale...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
he also appeals to the ethnic minority who wish to move up the social ladder and to the white working class who don't register on the victim scale...


Thats the 25% I referred to in my post.

The extra 23% he got in the election were as stated, the ABH lot who will never vote for him again unless the Democrats put Hillary up as a candidate.

Trump is toast as even his supporters will realise that the jobs are not coming back, the coal mines will not be open and they now have no medical cover. Lots of morons of the south voted against Obamacare without realising that the ACA they relied upon upon was actually the same thing.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
he also appeals to the ethnic minority who wish to move up the social ladder and to the white working class who don't register on the victim scale...


Thats the 25% I referred to in my post.

The extra 23% he got in the election were as stated, the ABH lot who will never vote for him again unless the Democrats put Hillary up as a candidate.

Trump is toast as even his supporters will realise that the jobs are not coming back, the coal mines will not be open and they now have no medical cover. Lots of morons of the south voted against Obamacare without realising that the ACA they relied upon upon was actually the same thing.


Trumpet is not doing himself any favours, that said, the Beeb really have it in for him...

I get the ABH and would have been in that camp..except for voting for Trump....it would have put me in a dilemma because none of the three were worthy of a vote...
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Trumpet is not doing himself any favours, that said, the Beeb really have it in for him...


The thing is, it's not just the Beeb. It's pretty much all of the MSM, every 'celebrity', every liberal-leaning lovie and snowflake all seem to be very vocal in spreading nastiness about him - he really is painted as the devil incarnate.

But as per my earlier point, he is popular amongst ordinary people. The people whose views are not given voice to by anyone in the public domain. The more the above vocalise their anger and smear him, the more popular he becomes. Primarily because his supporters absolutely despise the establishment and everything it represents, so the establishment getting so upset gives them encouragement that he really is speaking for them.

IMO it's a complete breath of fresh air.

And, incidentally, I think the reason I like him and what's happened is because is so very similar to the Brexit referendum. My social media was full (and regularly still is) of Remainers being very angry and vocal, implying that their view was the mainstream - which, as it turned out, wasn't.

I love this quote which perfectly sums up the current state of affairs in several big, recent topics:

“Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.” - Edmund Burke
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