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Brexit - seeing it from the other perspective
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobbie wrote:
when the EU changed the governments of both Greece and Italy without any reference to the electorates in those countries.


Go on then, lets see the evidence for these claims ?

Choose Greece - tell us when the EU changed the Greek government.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Nobbie wrote:
when the EU changed the governments of both Greece and Italy without any reference to the electorates in those countries.


Go on then, lets see the evidence for these claims ?

Choose Greece - tell us when the EU changed the Greek government.


The claim for Greece is quite extreme, but they certainly applied pressure when Greece wanted to apply anti austerity measures...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
The claim for Greece is quite extreme, but they certainly applied pressure when Greece wanted to apply anti austerity measures...


You wont find me defending the EU much, but thats just nonsense.

'Anti-austerity measures' is a complete misnomer. When you have no money, you've a 8% GDP deficit and you've run up huge debts and nobody will lend you money, there's no way to implement 'anti-austerity' as you have no money in the first place. Thats where Greece was under ND and they gambled adn decided to hold a referendum.

And lost to Syriza who promised no more austerity, no debt repayment and millions of public sector jobs. Those promises lasted about two weeks when the new government wen to the EU and demanded more cash, and said they were going to create millions of state jobs.

The Eu said do what you want with your money but we wont lend you any unless we are sure you'll pay it back and given what you plan to do is to run up even more deficits and do nothing about the rampant tax evasion and bank fraud going on, then no thanks Stavros - no money for you.

And they still have the same Greek government which is slowly beginning to realise that when you cannot run your country without other peoples money, and those other people don't give a stuff who you vote for but the money-strings stay the same.

The Greeks have always chosen the parties they wanted and the fact that those parties cannot extort money out of other countries is a source of amusement to long term watchers of the Greeks and their debt addicted, tax evading society.
And I am not even Turkish 1
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
The claim for Greece is quite extreme, but they certainly applied pressure when Greece wanted to apply anti austerity measures...


You wont find me defending the EU much, but thats just nonsense.

'Anti-austerity measures' is a complete misnomer. When you have no money, you've a 8% GDP deficit and you've run up huge debts and nobody will lend you money, there's no way to implement 'anti-austerity' as you have no money in the first place. Thats where Greece was under ND and they gambled adn decided to hold a referendum.

And lost to Syriza who promised no more austerity, no debt repayment and millions of public sector jobs. Those promises lasted about two weeks when the new government wen to the EU and demanded more cash, and said they were going to create millions of state jobs.

The Eu said do what you want with your money but we wont lend you any unless we are sure you'll pay it back and given what you plan to do is to run up even more deficits and do nothing about the rampant tax evasion and bank fraud going on, then no thanks Stavros - no money for you.

And they still have the same Greek government which is slowly beginning to realise that when you cannot run your country without other peoples money, and those other people don't give a stuff who you vote for but the money-strings stay the same.

The Greeks have always chosen the parties they wanted and the fact that those parties cannot extort money out of other countries is a source of amusement to long term watchers of the Greeks and their debt addicted, tax evading society.
And I am not even Turkish 1


Close, and probably enough to convince a remoaner, however, the fact that Greece couldn't survive on its own is irrelevant. The rights and wrongs are also irrelevant. The population voted to go a different way and the EU put Greece under huge pressure to knuckle down or be forced out of the EU.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
The population voted to go a different way and the EU put Greece under huge pressure to knuckle down or be forced out of the EU.


Sorry but thats just nonsense. The population voted to ;

1. Stay in the EZ, (okay, but there are obligations)

2. and not repay its debt (not if you stay in the EZ you don't)

3. Keep the Euro (incompatible with 1 and 2 because the country lives off debt and non-repayment means no more loans)

4. Keep on spending in Euro's (incompatible with 1,2 and 3 and besides the cashpoints are only filled up with European funds)

5. Keep their banks open (incompatible with 1,2,3 and 4)

As the Greeks found, you can vote for anything you want, but it means squat in real life if you cannot fund it. Reality trumps votes any day - you cannot spend what you do not have if you are Greek and Europe was not going to lend more money to the Greeks while letting European banks suffer from Greek theft.

The fact is the Greeks again, voted for 'have their cake and eat it' and Europe said no more money - do away with 'austerity' if you like but do that with your owed money - whats that ? You haven't got any ? Oh dear how sad, what pity.

No European institution has any obligation to fund the sense of entitlement the Greek have for others money - irrespective of how the Greeks vote. Nobody tried to force Greece out of the EU - they just laid out what they had to do to comply with the EZ membership rules and that loans had conditions - the conditions were actions to ensure repayment, and it was up to the Greeks to make the choices of how they would repay.

The Greeks chose to keep bloated unaffordable pensions, a useless public sector, de-industrialisation of their economy and to fight every agreement they signed after they signed and had the money.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see you still struggle to read....just a few more words would have nailed it...
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Brexit - seeing it from the other perspective Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Just one 'rule'. Whichever way you voted, you have to see the positives from the other side of the argument.

Okay, so I voted Remain. However, I think if the process can get more permanent UK citizens into work, then more money stays within the country which can only be a good thing; and of course reduce the social support payments those people.


I Voted remain as well.

Positive aspects of leaving:

In the long term leaving may open more opportunity, especially for UK HQ global industrial / manufacturing companies (currently we have very few significant companies like this). Other than financial services, the UK is currently loosing out in an increasingly globalized world

Self sufficiency, just look at Switzerland, here is a tiny country that is able to produce most of what it needs, including many domestic white goods. At the same time, Switzerland is a major center for global companies

Positive aspects of remaining

UK is already a world leader in financial services, financial services are vital to our economy. At best, the impact of leaving will be a slight reduction, at worst a significant relocation of financial services and the UK's importance in this market.

The UK was the second most influential country in Europe, after Germany. France, Italy and Spain are so reliant on Germany that they have no real influence, Sweden, Denmark and the UK, acting together ensured a good equilibrium in the EU. That equilibrium has been destroyed, now the conditions do exist to create a federal super state, the irony is that by leaving, we may finally enable what Eurosceptics fear the most.

Even though I am a passionate remainer, if we look 10+ years into the future, things could look very good for post Brexit Britain..... however, this is the problem, the next 5-10 years after Brixit things are likely to get very tough, the may be a recession, house prices may fall, unemployment may rise, Nissan, Toyota and Honda may close plants in the UK (there is excess car production capacity in Europe). Both sides will be pointing fingers at each other and not working out the way forward. Brexit will be one of the hardest change management exercises ever undertaken, and I really fear that we lack that change management leadership in all political parties
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We certainly lack successful change management experience and the quality of our leaders remains pretty dire...that said, this is pretty consistent across the EU and much of the world from what I can see...all the more reason for not creating monsters that are too big to predict and thus control...
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I changed the colours and logo of my cycling club's kit; barely made it out of town alive!
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
We certainly lack successful change management experience and the quality of our leaders remains pretty dire...that said, this is pretty consistent across the EU and much of the world from what I can see...all the more reason for not creating monsters that are too big to predict and thus control...


I disagree with your comment about being consistent across EU, the exception is Germany, I think that Germany has a strong leader, even though Angela Merkel is probably getting to the end of her time, and also has strong change management skills, they successfully integrated East and West Germany. I don't really know if it is an issue or not, however, I do feel that Germany will now be completely free to shape the EU is the way that it wants, the leader of Germany will be effectively the head of the EU
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
We certainly lack successful change management experience and the quality of our leaders remains pretty dire...that said, this is pretty consistent across the EU and much of the world from what I can see...all the more reason for not creating monsters that are too big to predict and thus control...


I disagree with your comment about being consistent across EU, the exception is Germany, I think that Germany has a strong leader, even though Angela Merkel is probably getting to the end of her time, and also has strong change management skills, they successfully integrated East and West Germany. I don't really know if it is an issue or not, however, I do feel that Germany will now be completely free to shape the EU is the way that it wants, the leader of Germany will be effectively the head of the EU


germany has pretty much led the EU for some time...she is strong in the way that thatcher was, which is fab for the good things, but less so where no one has the balls to say the direction is flawed.

Not sure how hard it was to unite Germany...I don't recall much dissent...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

Not sure how hard it was to unite Germany...I don't recall much dissent...


It would have been way easier than Brexit, as East basically just integrated into the existing 'West' German system and political/trade arrangements. However, there was plenty of grumbling from former West German citizens who had to pay for the cost of modernising the East out of their pay packets for decades; they are still doing it...it's called the Solidaritätszuschlag (Solidarity Surcharge). It's a 5.5% tax looking online Surprised
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

Not sure how hard it was to unite Germany...I don't recall much dissent...


It would have been way easier than Brexit, as East basically just integrated into the existing 'West' German system and political/trade arrangements. However, there was plenty of grumbling from former West German citizens who had to pay for the cost of modernising the East out of their pay packets for decades; they are still doing it...it's called the Solidaritätszuschlag (Solidarity Surcharge). It's a 5.5% tax looking online Surprised


that sounds about right...and someone always has to pay...
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the_exile




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
We certainly lack successful change management experience and the quality of our leaders remains pretty dire...that said, this is pretty consistent across the EU and much of the world from what I can see...all the more reason for not creating monsters that are too big to predict and thus control...


I disagree with your comment about being consistent across EU, the exception is Germany, I think that Germany has a strong leader, even though Angela Merkel is probably getting to the end of her time, and also has strong change management skills, they successfully integrated East and West Germany. I don't really know if it is an issue or not, however, I do feel that Germany will now be completely free to shape the EU is the way that it wants, the leader of Germany will be effectively the head of the EU


Apart from the fact Germany still doesn’t have a government and looks like making very limited progress towards getting one.

After we leave though the Germans will control the EU as they will be funding most of it so everyone will be scared to disagree with them.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Exile wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
We certainly lack successful change management experience and the quality of our leaders remains pretty dire...that said, this is pretty consistent across the EU and much of the world from what I can see...all the more reason for not creating monsters that are too big to predict and thus control...


I disagree with your comment about being consistent across EU, the exception is Germany, I think that Germany has a strong leader, even though Angela Merkel is probably getting to the end of her time, and also has strong change management skills, they successfully integrated East and West Germany. I don't really know if it is an issue or not, however, I do feel that Germany will now be completely free to shape the EU is the way that it wants, the leader of Germany will be effectively the head of the EU


Apart from the fact Germany still doesn’t have a government and looks like making very limited progress towards getting one.

After we leave though the Germans will control the EU as they will be funding most of it so everyone will be scared to disagree with them.


I think Macron may have something to say about that...
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