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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8307
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jgav wrote:
Quote:
Five people with 3.5w/kg FTP's will be able to rotate the front of the bunch at over 4w/kg - so yes, if you get dropped, you would not expect to get back on with just 4w/kg.


I understand that, however it wasn't a race it was supposed to be a friendly group ride with a ride leader.


Sure, but that just means the rotation at the front is smooth...
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
The cheats/bandits I can deal with - very simply I don't do the races, but it is annoying when you sign up for a group ride at 3.0w/kg and get blown out the back at 3.5.....and you have to concentrate/not get off for a p&ss/slow down to take a drink etc as once off the back it is VERY hard to get back.

The Group workouts are another angle, you are all attached to a group as long as you are pedalling regardless of w/kg and do a workout issue I have with this is that you are moved randomly around the group so your screen actions do not relate to your pedalling.

Be better if you were 'above' target Watts you move to the front, if you start drifting below target you slide to the back etc.

I'd say 90% of my Zwifting is just plain solo workouts. Waiting for the day that TrainerRoad and Zwift combine....


This is my point exactly. I am not bothered about people cheating, what I didn't understand is when you sign up for a 3.0w ride and can't keep up even when riding at a constant 3.5W.

I didn't know about drafting in Swift. Maybe as I spend more time, I can progress beyond my Specialized Alez. I often see people doing 2.8W/kg and I am pushing out 3.5W/kg just to keep up
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a basic smart trainer (Bushido Smart, so no down hill assistance), I am constantly changing gear, and my effort is varying depending gradient, I find that it is a reasonable approximation at reality. Are people who don't have a smart meter at an advantage, as resistance is constant (zwift is adjusting speed), so you can maintain an even cadence and power?

For what its worth, I find that speed, power and HR on Swift are pretty close to the speed, power and HR I see on the road

I like the concept of the group rides on Zwift, I find the D and E rides way to easy, however C rides I am hanging on by my fingertips, working way above my target power and HR, B rides are simply stupid, even though most are advertised at 3.0 - 4.0W/KG (which should be well within my range)
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Jgav




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
I use a basic smart trainer (Bushido Smart, so no down hill assistance), I am constantly changing gear, and my effort is varying depending gradient, I find that it is a reasonable approximation at reality. Are people who don't have a smart meter at an advantage, as resistance is constant (zwift is adjusting speed), so you can maintain an even cadence and power?

For what its worth, I find that speed, power and HR on Swift are pretty close to the speed, power and HR I see on the road

I like the concept of the group rides on Zwift, I find the D and E rides way to easy, however C rides I am hanging on by my fingertips, working way above my target power and HR, B rides are simply stupid, even though most are advertised at 3.0 - 4.0W/KG (which should be well within my range)


I enter C races if I want to beast myself and get in a really good workout. They can be brutal at the start.
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
You can pretty much guarantee anyone who gets one of those U'oh emails, when they lose a KOM/CR is going to check out who/how it was done.


when you have a 1,000 you don't bother with the emails.

I don't even bother with the emails and only have a few - although I would look on my occasional visits to strava at the notifications.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
You can pretty much guarantee anyone who gets one of those U'oh emails, when they lose a KOM/CR is going to check out who/how it was done.


when you have a 1,000 you don't bother with the emails.

I don't even bother with the emails and only have a few - although I would look on my occasional visits to strava at the notifications.


Most of my CRs are around the village where I live and used to live in the town closeby, so I do look; normally they're people on bikes. In fact I got one at the weekend. A guy went for a 50km run, av pace was 4:46/km, which is very solid. However if you look at the splits, there are loads of sub-3:00 km splits including in the final 5km. Obviously a ride, but also a pretty odd/sh1t one pace wise! Or maybe he can put in a low-4 min mile after a marathon....
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IronMike




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Zwift, but I take it for what it is - a way of distracting myself from the tedium of being on a stationary cycle for an hour or two.

I have the same issue as the OP - Can hit a 5 hour IM bike split, ride with all but the fastest of my bike club etc etc, but I struggle with the D category rides on Zwift. I think that a few things are going on:

1) I'm just not very fit at the moment - my FTP is a good 50 watts down thanks to 6 months of illness at the start of this year, and I am only just starting to claw it back.

2) I'm a heavy guy, and I am honest about my weight on the program - I have a Withings scale linked to my Zwift account, so every Monday morning when I weight myself, it uploads this value to Zwift. I also ride with a Tacx Neo, so I am about as honest as I can be in terms of my Zwift ability. As has been mentioned, there are certainly a lot of people on there that aren't I would imagine.

3) I'm not sure how accurately Zwift translates things like momentum into the virtual world. Having got sort of back to where I used to be fitness wise, there is a guy I've ridden with a few times who I happen to know in real life too. We ride outside and he is off my back wheel in a flash - I have to sit up regularly. In Zwift he leaves me for dead. He's a very small, slight bloke - some 60kgs wet I'd estimate. Every hill, he's gone, every flat, he's gone. I'm pushing over 350w just to sit on the back of him.

4) My Neo seems to lag a few seconds. If I put in a big push, it takes 3 seconds or so for my avatar to respond. This is long enough for a group to gap you by 10 metres or so, and once you lose that draft you're done.

I did a bit of Zwift racing earlier this year, and it was a fun distraction, but I use it more as a means of thrashing myself rather than for the willy wangling side of things. If I fall off the turbo an hour later feeling exhausted, then for me it has done it's job. I'm not interested in whether I am a Cat A or B or whatever. I'll do my talking out on the roads in the spring / summer.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike wrote:
I love Zwift, but I take it for what it is - a way of distracting myself from the tedium of being on a stationary cycle for an hour or two.

I have the same issue as the OP - Can hit a 5 hour IM bike split, ride with all but the fastest of my bike club etc etc, but I struggle with the D category rides on Zwift. I think that a few things are going on:

1) I'm just not very fit at the moment - my FTP is a good 50 watts down thanks to 6 months of illness at the start of this year, and I am only just starting to claw it back.

2) I'm a heavy guy, and I am honest about my weight on the program - I have a Withings scale linked to my Zwift account, so every Monday morning when I weight myself, it uploads this value to Zwift. I also ride with a Tacx Neo, so I am about as honest as I can be in terms of my Zwift ability. As has been mentioned, there are certainly a lot of people on there that aren't I would imagine.

3) I'm not sure how accurately Zwift translates things like momentum into the virtual world. Having got sort of back to where I used to be fitness wise, there is a guy I've ridden with a few times who I happen to know in real life too. We ride outside and he is off my back wheel in a flash - I have to sit up regularly. In Zwift he leaves me for dead. He's a very small, slight bloke - some 60kgs wet I'd estimate. Every hill, he's gone, every flat, he's gone. I'm pushing over 350w just to sit on the back of him.

4) My Neo seems to lag a few seconds. If I put in a big push, it takes 3 seconds or so for my avatar to respond. This is long enough for a group to gap you by 10 metres or so, and once you lose that draft you're done.

I did a bit of Zwift racing earlier this year, and it was a fun distraction, but I use it more as a means of thrashing myself rather than for the willy wangling side of things. If I fall off the turbo an hour later feeling exhausted, then for me it has done it's job. I'm not interested in whether I am a Cat A or B or whatever. I'll do my talking out on the roads in the spring / summer.


Thats pretty interesting, I also use a Withings scale, linked via myfitnessPal, can you link directly?

I use a Tacx Bushido Smart, I suspect that a smart Trainer is more difficult as the resistance is constantly changing, while people who do not have a smart trainer, can just spin at a constant cadence and resistance and Zwift adjusts the speed (surely this is easier to do)

My ftp is 3.5w/kg, but there is no way that I can keep up with the 3.5w/kg workouts
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never raced on Zwift before but tried 3 over the weekend, just for a giggle.

Cat C, Cat B and a all Cat race.

Conclusions:

Cat A - forget it. Cheats and pros by the look with some of the w/kg they push out.

Cat B - logically I fit right in the middle of the Cat B range, but it doesn't pan out that way. Races are fierce from the off, and I need about 95-100% FTP just to hang in a Grupetto. Won't be a factor, but it is a great threshold workout.

Cat C - probably what B should be. Riding at around sweetspot keeps me in the lead group, with enough left to have a tickle at the end (although I'm a diesel engine and go backwards). Thus a nice productive sweet spot workout and a fun session.

The all Cat race was madness. Tons of people racing C, roaring off at 4+w/kg when their upper limit is supposed to be 3.2w/kg.

For the record I got an 8th, a 19th and a 54th. Decent warm up is essential, as is getting into gear and the watts up 10 seconds before the start.

I'll probably persist - just use them as Group rides with a target intensity when that aligns with a training session. If they are more predictable than the usual group rides then that is good as I find that many group ride go off at nothing like the advertised intensity.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Riding at around sweetspot keeps me in the lead group,*

You have quite a strange idea of what it should take to ride around in the lead group of a 1 hour race, it should be lots of periods of above threshold, with some bits of below, or pretty continuous threshold, if you're riding easier than that you're in the wrong category.

This appears to be one of the issues with zwift, people's expectation of races are that the correct category is a relatively easy workout until you "have a dig at the end".

(this assumes there's not a defining part of the course)
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
*Riding at around sweetspot keeps me in the lead group,*

You have quite a strange idea of what it should take to ride around in the lead group of a 1 hour race, it should be lots of periods of above threshold, with some bits of below, or pretty continuous threshold, if you're riding easier than that you're in the wrong category.

This appears to be one of the issues with zwift, people's expectation of races are that the correct category is a relatively easy workout until you "have a dig at the end".

(this assumes there's not a defining part of the course)


I did say logically I fit in the middle of B, and duly had to stick at around threshold to hold in the Grupetto in B, C was at sweetspot, but then it should be if I am B.

In the all Cat race I was in a group of around 20-25, all but 2/3 were noted as 'C' and we rode at 3.5 - 3.7 w/kg + for an hour. I rode as B (3.2 - 4 w/kg) and C is 2.5 - 3.2 w/kg.
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FatPom




Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
*Riding at around sweetspot keeps me in the lead group,*

You have quite a strange idea of what it should take to ride around in the lead group of a 1 hour race, it should be lots of periods of above threshold, with some bits of below, or pretty continuous threshold, if you're riding easier than that you're in the wrong category.

This appears to be one of the issues with zwift, people's expectation of races are that the correct category is a relatively easy workout until you "have a dig at the end".

(this assumes there's not a defining part of the course)


See my previous post. Wink
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IronMike




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
IronMike wrote:
I love Zwift, but I take it for what it is - a way of distracting myself from the tedium of being on a stationary cycle for an hour or two.

I have the same issue as the OP - Can hit a 5 hour IM bike split, ride with all but the fastest of my bike club etc etc, but I struggle with the D category rides on Zwift. I think that a few things are going on:

1) I'm just not very fit at the moment - my FTP is a good 50 watts down thanks to 6 months of illness at the start of this year, and I am only just starting to claw it back.

2) I'm a heavy guy, and I am honest about my weight on the program - I have a Withings scale linked to my Zwift account, so every Monday morning when I weight myself, it uploads this value to Zwift. I also ride with a Tacx Neo, so I am about as honest as I can be in terms of my Zwift ability. As has been mentioned, there are certainly a lot of people on there that aren't I would imagine.

3) I'm not sure how accurately Zwift translates things like momentum into the virtual world. Having got sort of back to where I used to be fitness wise, there is a guy I've ridden with a few times who I happen to know in real life too. We ride outside and he is off my back wheel in a flash - I have to sit up regularly. In Zwift he leaves me for dead. He's a very small, slight bloke - some 60kgs wet I'd estimate. Every hill, he's gone, every flat, he's gone. I'm pushing over 350w just to sit on the back of him.

4) My Neo seems to lag a few seconds. If I put in a big push, it takes 3 seconds or so for my avatar to respond. This is long enough for a group to gap you by 10 metres or so, and once you lose that draft you're done.

I did a bit of Zwift racing earlier this year, and it was a fun distraction, but I use it more as a means of thrashing myself rather than for the willy wangling side of things. If I fall off the turbo an hour later feeling exhausted, then for me it has done it's job. I'm not interested in whether I am a Cat A or B or whatever. I'll do my talking out on the roads in the spring / summer.


Thats pretty interesting, I also use a Withings scale, linked via myfitnessPal, can you link directly?

I use a Tacx Bushido Smart, I suspect that a smart Trainer is more difficult as the resistance is constantly changing, while people who do not have a smart trainer, can just spin at a constant cadence and resistance and Zwift adjusts the speed (surely this is easier to do)

My ftp is 3.5w/kg, but there is no way that I can keep up with the 3.5w/kg workouts


Yeah you link it directly through the app. I think it is a nokia health app now as they took over Withings. It has been a while though since I set it all up and haven't touched it since. Have a google - definitely automatic though.
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chunkytfg




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you change which group you're racing in? I tried to enter a race for the first time a week or so ago and it dumped me in group A with seemingly no way of changing to other groups? I Use an iPad for ref.
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Richard Allbert




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just started on Zwift, and watched a few races, also a few on Twitch / YouTube. I have a look at some results, and the w/kg at the end of the race was pretty close to the class definition.

To me they seem pretty realistic, and little cheating.

I'm not sure how we think being good at a TT over 90km means being good at a short road race.

One is a long constant effort, the other is full of short bursts, and almost no constant effort.

You see this in real life cycling - plenty of one day classic specialists are rubbish at the TT.

In road racing, especially short races (most are on Zwift), FTP is not really all that relevant. The race is comprised almost entirely of surges.

You can have a rubbish FTP but great 20s power. And the opposite.. in my case my FTP is around 3.6W/kg but there's no way I can hold > 5w/kg for more than a few seconds. Lots of road racers can, it's what they train for.

A good example is this video... at Cat 2 racer finishing the hour at 4.0W/kg, which is what you would expect.

Watch the race and it is full of massive surges. No steady state stuff at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWB2bWMN5eE&t=3425s
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