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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 971

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doca wrote:
TRO Saracen wrote:
Doca wrote:
I'm interested to see the responses to this too. My gut feeling was that it would be better to to be able to put on a kilo on the last few weeks to make sure the body was not under nourished.


If you need to put a Kg on to be 'not under nourished' in last few weeks then you would have been training before that while undernourished - surely sub optimal in terms of converting the hard work into body adaptations?


Maybe a wrong choice of words. If your losing weight in training up to an event then you must be in a calorie defect and I wonder if that is the best place to be for best performance in an endurance event. I figured that if you eat a little more in the weeks before the race and put a little bit of weight back on you would be sure to be on the right side of the calorie equation. As I said, only my musings and not any science.


Yes, agree, calorie deficit is not good in the final run in to an event - but then running a calorie deficit must be sub optimal during any block. Hence wondering whether to spread the loss - maybe during base training where you aren't pushing quite so hard and there's plenty of time to after to settle in at the lower weight. Bloody hard from a discipline perspective, I'd struggle for sure....
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being under nourished for the early / Base sections of the training has the added benefit of encouraging your body to utilise it's fat stores. This should help all the way down the line as your body is far happier to dip into these before they are needed.

This has been scientifically proven absolutely no where, and I have no source whatsoever to back this up, but conceptually it sounds pretty good Laughing

From experience it seem to work well for me, any hard dieting I do early on, and get more "eaty" as I reach peak, relying on volume to keep the weight under control, May's weight tends to be my race weight give of take a few lbs where as in Jan I can be over a stone above that.

Of course I'm pretty fat (190lbs @5,10) and pretty slow
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Andy916




Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:

Yes, agree, calorie deficit is not good in the final run in to an event - but then running a calorie deficit must be sub optimal during any block. Hence wondering whether to spread the loss - maybe during base training where you aren't pushing quite so hard and there's plenty of time to after to settle in at the lower weight. Bloody hard from a discipline perspective, I'd struggle for sure....


Have to say I'm a bit perplexed at the emphasis being put on simple body weight here. What's your %bf, measured for example by Tanita athlete mode? For all the criticism of bioimpedence, used *consistently* mine shows a very clear cycle of up to 12% in winter down to 7-8% in season.

The discipline part becomes a lot easier if you make an effort not to be surrounded by crap food. The usual sugar addiction (not directed at anyone in particular) gives you empty calories. The usual wrong fats set you up with chronic inflammation (omega-6 mostly from seed oils, also processed stuff contains even-worse hydrogenated fat). Nutrient density and avoiding toxins are what count, not calories. If you want to read some real science, but aimed at the lay-person, I'd suggest Jaminet & Jaminet and adapt that to suit endurance athletics. Beware the commercial corruption of much mainstream nutrition.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
Posts: 302
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
I googled about last night on the topic and found this:

https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/height_weight.html

For my height, both the graph of actual MPRO data, the little formula that he provides and the Joe Friel Ratio of 2.1-2.3 LBs per inch of height all give me a race weight of around 66kg. I'd have my build as pretty much medium - not a super heavy Potts, not a super light Lange.

Accept much of this is targeted at pro level competition, but I think it shows that my 71kg, whilst the leanest I have ever been on the start line is likely to be some way off the optimum.

Hmmmmm.....


Interesting formula, this would put me at 70kg. Basically around where I feel best.
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hunkydory




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 85
Location: Shepperton

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hot potato topic this one.

firstly you must remember that very few of us fit these "one size fits all" recommendations and formulas. they can give you guidance but chances are you need to do fair bit of experimentation to hone in on your ideal race weight. still, looking at body weight as a sole body metric is very archaic. I feel that what the body is made of is relatively more important than how much of it there is (within reason). hence knowing your lean body mass, body fat percentage and hydration status become very intersting as an objective metric.

You must also remember that the demands between IM and Sprint racing are very different. sprinters can be more muscle heavy where as IM racers need to be skinny (look at runners: sprint vs. marathon) to gain mazimal efficiency. This will sway your weight as well as your other body metrics and renders the generic formulas obsolete.

enhancing the efficiency also has a bearing on fuel and recovery. sprinters can be more anaerobic sugar burning machines, swigging gels even in training, yet IM chuggers need to be more aerobic fat burning machines, only resorting to coke during the IM marathon.

the metabolic rates vary obviously accroding to training volume but also accroidng to time of year as well. taking this into consideration will take a lot of the guild away from carrying a extra at times.

being under weight or undernourished again are two different things. under weight is not a problem, as long as its mainly fluid loss, yet as pointed out before, being under nourished will reduce gains from training, unable to heal and to recover, and leave you floundering on race day.

combining HRV measurements is also helpful in indicating you recovery status and guiding your trainign from day to day.

I guess the take home message is to actually sit down and outline your goals (races and finishing times). Then start working out the physique required to achieve those goals - you may need to consult a sports nutritionist or a scientist. and finally splashign out on your own tanita scales and HRV belt and app is a good idea as they will give you some ability to measure your progress.

my two pence worth.
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1042
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
TRO Saracen wrote:
I googled about last night on the topic and found this:

https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/height_weight.html

For my height, both the graph of actual MPRO data, the little formula that he provides and the Joe Friel Ratio of 2.1-2.3 LBs per inch of height all give me a race weight of around 66kg. I'd have my build as pretty much medium - not a super heavy Potts, not a super light Lange.

Accept much of this is targeted at pro level competition, but I think it shows that my 71kg, whilst the leanest I have ever been on the start line is likely to be some way off the optimum.

Hmmmmm.....


Interesting formula, this would put me at 70kg. Basically around where I feel best.


Hmm, using that formula it wouldn't be too bad if I could swim, but I'm about 10KG over an Ironman weight, if I got down to 66KG I don't think I'd be here for very long and I think even I'd be worried. Can remember being ~68kg quite a few years ago but have increased muscle (& fat) since then.

Ideally I think I'd be ok at 72kg, anything lighter than that would have to be for a short period.

But, found it really hard to lose any weight in recent years, it has been a slow increase, despite not eating huge amounts, especially in recent months, although I've been doing a lot less training this year.

Hoping to make an effort from at least January onwards, I'm getting close to being over my injuries so can hopefully get back to a bit more training.

Jeff
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
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Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also saw this via Twitter a couple of days ago, Canadian athlete, unfortunately most of us probably don't have the time for this level diet control or someone to help. But interesting that she basically trains heavy to keep healthier and then loses weight gradually around competitions.

300cal reduction per day gets her to race weight in 6-8 weeks, I suspect she's not looking to lose 6-7kg though but tends to reduce the sweets etc. first.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2264906/how-olympic-runner-hits-race-weight?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=onsiteshare

Going on that approach and 2-2.5 * body weight of protein per day I'd be on a lot of protein, but I've also seen Yann le Meur suggest higher protein intake during weight loss to stop the muscles eating themselves.

Jeff
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That calculator says I should be 72kg to be an elite IM. I would look like a corpse at 72kg. I would also love to have the discipline to even get to 76kg but I can't even get under 80kg in peak season (don't want to even weigh myself at the moment!)
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
Also saw this via Twitter a couple of days ago, Canadian athlete, unfortunately most of us probably don't have the time for this level diet control or someone to help. But interesting that she basically trains heavy to keep healthier and then loses weight gradually around competitions.

300cal reduction per day gets her to race weight in 6-8 weeks, I suspect she's not looking to lose 6-7kg though but tends to reduce the sweets etc. first.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2264906/how-olympic-runner-hits-race-weight?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=onsiteshare

Going on that approach and 2-2.5 * body weight of protein per day I'd be on a lot of protein, but I've also seen Yann le Meur suggest higher protein intake during weight loss to stop the muscles eating themselves.

Jeff


Thanks for that, very interesting. 2.3% reduction in body fat at peak for races, probably just under 1.5 Kg.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
Posts: 302
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
TRO Saracen wrote:
I googled about last night on the topic and found this:

https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/height_weight.html

For my height, both the graph of actual MPRO data, the little formula that he provides and the Joe Friel Ratio of 2.1-2.3 LBs per inch of height all give me a race weight of around 66kg. I'd have my build as pretty much medium - not a super heavy Potts, not a super light Lange.

Accept much of this is targeted at pro level competition, but I think it shows that my 71kg, whilst the leanest I have ever been on the start line is likely to be some way off the optimum.

Hmmmmm.....



Interesting formula, this would put me at 70kg. Basically around where I feel best.


Hmm, using that formula it wouldn't be too bad if I could swim, but I'm about 10KG over an Ironman weight, if I got down to 66KG I don't think I'd be here for very long and I think even I'd be worried. Can remember being ~68kg quite a few years ago but have increased muscle (& fat) since then.

Ideally I think I'd be ok at 72kg, anything lighter than that would have to be for a short period.

But, found it really hard to lose any weight in recent years, it has been a slow increase, despite not eating huge amounts, especially in recent months, although I've been doing a lot less training this year.

Hoping to make an effort from at least January onwards, I'm getting close to being over my injuries so can hopefully get back to a bit more training.

Jeff


Funny you should say that about finding it difficult to lose weight.

I'm finding the same thing as I'm getting older (50 in February). I feel that my body shape has changed as well, really noticing the tummy.

I also find if I don't do some upper body work as well I feel "flabby" all over.
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leahnp




Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1910
Location: Scottish Borders

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at the calculator and with my height i should be 70kg for an elite IM as well, my winter weight isn't that high when I am at my 'race weight' I am nearer 65/66 kg. Obviously it does not take into body composition but if bulked up like a swimmer maybe but I am built for long distance running.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

62kg for me....no chance...
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

64kg for me..... better start dieting now to hit that target by end April
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 220

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It puts me at 68-70k for race weight. I'm currently 77kg and this is the slimmest I've been in a while at 17%bf %. At 70kg if I maintain current muscle mass I would be down to 9% bf% which whilst reasonable for an elite endurance athlete, I think I would find it hard to maintain.
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It gives me a race weight of 73kg. I am now 77kg with 14% bf. Everything else being equal 73kg would take be down to about 9% bf, probably ok.
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