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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2320
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
Mungo wrote:
Jim
I get the science....
But how can you ask your body to race for 5 hours, or hopefully 4:45 this year if you only exercise for an hour at a time?

I get the intensity is higher on the hour bikes and runs.

If I only did hour sessions between now and June I would have doubts about finishing the Deva never mind going under 5.


The problem of course would be in knowing and being able to control the intensity that you could sustain for those 4.5 hours - but of course that's the natural problem anyway, even if you're also riding longer.

So whilst I can say it - who has spent ages without doing anything but commute and the odd short (less than 50minute run, less than 90minute ride) and then have managed to go out and sustain 4-5 bike rides at intensities not that far from my best - my best would've been at 20 hour weeks though. And a lot of it is from having experience of those durations, and that volume.

So from a training perspective - multiple days off where there's no stimulus is going to be worse, I can understand that for many people it will massively increase the chance of mis-pacing or having an injury issue. So of course I wouldn't recommend doing it. If you only have the choice of a particular number of hours. Spreading them out through the week is going to be better - a single session can only drive so much adaptation - do what you need to do for confidence though.


The number of sessions per week is absolutely not the most important factor by far, but it does speak to a few things.

One phrase that seems to hold true with most things is ďlittle and oftenĒ, maybe thatís ďlots and oftenĒ for long distance but Wink

Iím sure Iíll do some lengthy runs and rides but honestly I canít say I feel in previous years that they were significant in developing endurance as much as confidence.

I wasnít going to do anything longer than Olympic Distance this year because I think Iíve learned that I need to develop my shorter distance strengths before I can expect a significant improvement on my ironman results. In fact I could fit the TR low volume full distance plan in if I sub the weekly long ride for 2x45km commutes, but the thought of long course just makes me angry Laughing I ~#*$ hate it! Well love/hate anyway Wink Thereís always Lanza...
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t1mmy




Joined: 22 Oct 2014
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you canít commit the time you feel you need to to get quicker why not pick races where the challenge is to complete rather than compete?

You still get to train but will enjoy tri in a different way. When your circumstances change in the future, which they will do, you can change your focus then.

Iíve never been involved in a sport where there is such a micro focus on every little thing. It can be the biggest time and money drain if it gets out of hand. Iím not directing that at anyone and I understand the drive lots of people have in the sport.

I remember a thread I put up here a few years ago saying what I planned to do. I got a right mixed bag of responses, one of which basically said with the amount of training I was going to do I would get round but have a bloody miserable day and why bother? The weather in IM Wales was horrific at times but I had an amazing race and wouldnít change it for the world. It really boils down to what you want to achieve.

Life is short, have fun doing whatever you choose to do!

Since IM Wales I have taken up mountain biking again which is a right blast. Iím also planning a future attempt at the Bob Graham Round as itís the next challenge that I canít ignore forever.
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1319
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also another classic - everyone's different response.

It can be mentally discouraging to set a training goal (e.g. sessions/week) that is too high from the start. TP - you've already admitted that it was depressing seeing 'only' a 52% completion rate from last year. Why not simply reframe it: so, i managed to fit in X sessions in a busy year, with 3 injuries, kids etc etc. This year i will try to improve on that in the best way possible.

Your car has broken down. Ok, that's fine. don't let the schedule stress you out. Just reconfigure your plan, do what you can and try to be happy with that. Obviously this obly goes so far, as you can't simply excuse every session!

It took me a while to really accept this ethos myself, no mater how simple it seems. My current training block, which is entering peak is completely flexible as i didn't want the stress of not being able to go out for whatever reason to outweigh the benefits of the sessions themselves. As a result, i am (i think) well trained, well rested and in a great mental state leading up to my A race. Ok so i probably have 20or 30km/week less on my average distance, but i've put in some mega sessions that i think will far outweigh them.
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't work to a set training plan, I do at least 2 sessions of each discipline per week & try to be consistent. I cycle with a local cycling club and that feels more like going out with the boys more than it does training but they are a fast bunch and I believe the training is good.
I run with a tri club, often there are clashes & I have to choose what I think is the best session for me.
I'm sure a structured plan would deliver better results but it would be much less fun. All that said I am working to a bit of a plan in the build up to London and being more run focused.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1344

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Jim
I get the science....
But how can you ask your body to race for 5 hours, or hopefully 4:45 this year if you only exercise for an hour at a time?

I get the intensity is higher on the hour bikes and runs.

If I only did hour sessions between now and June I would have doubts about finishing the Deva never mind going under 5.

I stated earlier I really felt that this session helped. 2.5-1.5.
Confidence is not an issue, you know when your ready and hour sessions only wouldn't get me there.

(I amalgamated two of your posts there)

I am very much on the side of Jim. Last year I did two HIM distance races. I did 4-5 rides in excess of 75mins the entire year after VLM (which was a bit of a write off in of itself). Less than 1 per month, and they would generally be fairly relaxed. Everything else bike wise was regular 1-1.15hr turbo sessions, 10m TT's, etc. After VLM I also did a single race of 10k, and other than that I mainly did 5-6k run efforts once or twice a week. I did no brick sessions.

I had no single training day anywhere near approaching 4.5-5hrs. Yet went 4:41 and 4:39 in my two HIMs.

I really cannot understand how you are proposing to do multiple 2.5hr bikes into 1.5hr runs, ideally at race pace? To me, that sounds like a recipe for disaster if you do those regularly alongside other training. I'm not in any position to do much at all after a race, for at least a few days, so those kind of efforts would completely derail any other training.

I know lots of people have different approaches, but Lionel Sanders is very clear that the only day he performs at race pace is on the day of the race itself. Otherwise it's long and slow to build endurance/muscular adaptation without too much punishment, or short and hard intervals to grow the engine.

Ultimately, I agree that little and often is much better than one or two big sessions per week with little else. Clearly lots and often is even better (within reason, and within the limits of one's ability to absorb the training).
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 235
Location: Preston

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stennard
The 2.5-1.5 session is once a month done after a rest day at race pace, it's always done inside watt bike- tread mill and usually improves month on month I swim only the day after.
Well done on the times, if I can get near them at 50 I'll be really happy this year.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1344

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Stennard
The 2.5-1.5 session is once a month done after a rest day at race pace, it's always done inside watt bike- tread mill and usually improves month on month I swim only the day after.
Well done on the times, if I can get near them at 50 I'll be really happy this year.

That's still a lot to me. As I say, a race pace 2.5hr bike and 1.5hr bike would mean limited training for nearly a week, based on how I feel after a HIM.

We're all different though. If it works for you!
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a novice in all this, I'm doing 2 workouts 5/6 times a week.

The reason for this is time. It's easier to split the training morning and night and still look to get in a total of 1-1.5 hours a day, longer on weekends.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2320
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Mungo wrote:
Stennard
The 2.5-1.5 session is once a month done after a rest day at race pace, it's always done inside watt bike- tread mill and usually improves month on month I swim only the day after.
Well done on the times, if I can get near them at 50 I'll be really happy this year.

That's still a lot to me. As I say, a race pace 2.5hr bike and 1.5hr bike would mean limited training for nearly a week, based on how I feel after a HIM.

We're all different though. If it works for you!


Iíd agree, my experience of big sessions is that itís hard to get benefit from the rest of the week.

I was looking at high-volume-run-extraordinaire Fink last night, his plans for the half are based around a 415/45 brick, and even he has a much lower percentage of run in that, and itís not race pace.

I donít think such large training sessions have a place in a low volume plan.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 235
Location: Preston

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stennard and tinpot

After returning to tri and loosing 2 stone of muscle last year being honest I'm not really sure what works for me.
I retired with Sciatica in 2011 after qualifying at Oulton Park in the spring.
I was at one hour sprint.. ish and 2:10 Olympic level. I won the overall in the Cholmondeley castle sprint in 2010 so was going quite well.

I'm no racing snake but can dig deep and I train hard. Those speeds are beyond me at my age, and am aware of my strengths and weaknesses for instance if I did stanards 6 runs in a week including a race I would 100% injure myself, probably a calf strain or worse.

I decided to try 70.3 for two seasons with a full distance in 2019.
I really feel that the long session helps me...
I have no evidence other than it improves month on month as the season progresses and gets nearer the 2:30-1:30 splits distance wise that would be the ultimate goal.

A 4:45 sub would be great, but the ultimate aim is sub11 at IMUK next year.
Surely no amount of one hour sessions would see you on the start line for Bolton best prepared for the longest day?!

I appreciate your views and may look at my plan, as it's far from set in stone.
I plan two 18 hour weeks in March and I get that this session may disrupt the rest of the work for that week, an option is to run it at 150 bpm as opposed to 160?
Which has been suggested, I hope your both going well and congratulations on recent efforts.
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 235
Location: Preston

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stennard and tinpot

After returning to tri and loosing 2 stone of muscle last year being honest I'm not really sure what works for me.
I retired with Sciatica in 2011 after qualifying at Oulton Park in the spring.
I was at one hour sprint.. ish and 2:10 Olympic level. I won the overall in the Cholmondeley castle sprint in 2010 so was going quite well.

I'm no racing snake but can dig deep and I train hard. Those speeds are beyond me at my age, and am aware of my strengths and weaknesses for instance if I did stanards 6 runs in a week including a race I would 100% injure myself, probably a calf strain or worse.

I decided to try 70.3 for two seasons with a full distance in 2019.
I really feel that the long session helps me...
I have no evidence other than it improves month on month as the season progresses and gets nearer the 2:30-1:30 splits distance wise that would be the ultimate goal.

A 4:45 sub would be great, but the ultimate aim is sub11 at IMUK next year.
Surely no amount of one hour sessions would see you on the start line for Bolton best prepared for the longest day?!

I appreciate your views and may look at my plan, as it's far from set in stone.
I plan two 18 hour weeks in March and I get that this session may disrupt the rest of the work for that week, an option is to run it at 150 bpm as opposed to 160?
Which has been suggested, I hope your both going well and congratulations on recent efforts.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2320
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Stennard and tinpot

After returning to tri and loosing 2 stone of muscle last year being honest I'm not really sure what works for me.
I retired with Sciatica in 2011 after qualifying at Oulton Park in the spring.
I was at one hour sprint.. ish and 2:10 Olympic level. I won the overall in the Cholmondeley castle sprint in 2010 so was going quite well.

I'm no racing snake but can dig deep and I train hard. Those speeds are beyond me at my age, and am aware of my strengths and weaknesses for instance if I did stanards 6 runs in a week including a race I would 100% injure myself, probably a calf strain or worse.

I decided to try 70.3 for two seasons with a full distance in 2019.
I really feel that the long session helps me...
I have no evidence other than it improves month on month as the season progresses and gets nearer the 2:30-1:30 splits distance wise that would be the ultimate goal.

A 4:45 sub would be great, but the ultimate aim is sub11 at IMUK next year.
Surely no amount of one hour sessions would see you on the start line for Bolton best prepared for the longest day?!

I appreciate your views and may look at my plan, as it's far from set in stone.
I plan two 18 hour weeks in March and I get that this session may disrupt the rest of the work for that week, an option is to run it at 150 bpm as opposed to 160?
Which has been suggested, I hope your both going well and congratulations on recent efforts.


Unless Iíve missed it I donít know what the training week/month looks like leading up to that race pace brick, or the week after.

I think youíre doing a much higher volume 12hrs/wk?

When Inwas doing that, Iíd finish a 3 week training stint with a long ride or long brick, but I didnt doing at race pace, just aerobic zones, nose breathing stuff, then the next week was my recovery week before ramping up again. I think that worked for me, and fits most peopleís approach for high volume training.

I agree with you, I wouldnít do a full IM on my current plan. But, now that I have two IMs and three 70.3s in my past I think I can trust the training more and need the very long sessions less.

Of course, I might die on my ass at Hever and we can all have a good laugh Smile
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 235
Location: Preston

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless Iíve missed it I donít know what the training week/month looks like leading up to that race pace brick, or the week after.

I think youíre doing a much higher volume 12hrs/wk?

When Inwas doing that, Iíd finish a 3 week training stint with a long ride or long brick, but I didnt doing at race pace, just aerobic zones, nose breathing stuff, then the next week was my recovery week before ramping up again. I think that worked for me, and fits most peopleís approach for high volume training.

If you include stretching which I am trying to do more of about 13...ish.
It is a hard session and I certainly tone it down a few days beforehand swim core stretch the days afterwards.
It is done religiously after a rest day and is the main focus of the surrounding fortnight.
Haver?
Half?
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2320
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Unless Iíve missed it I donít know what the training week/month looks like leading up to that race pace brick, or the week after.

I think youíre doing a much higher volume 12hrs/wk?

When Inwas doing that, Iíd finish a 3 week training stint with a long ride or long brick, but I didnt doing at race pace, just aerobic zones, nose breathing stuff, then the next week was my recovery week before ramping up again. I think that worked for me, and fits most peopleís approach for high volume training.

If you include stretching which I am trying to do more of about 13...ish.
It is a hard session and I certainly tone it down a few days beforehand swim core stretch the days afterwards.
It is done religiously after a rest day and is the main focus of the surrounding fortnight.
Haver?
Half?


Yep, half. Iím probably not scared enough yet.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Mungo wrote:
Unless Iíve missed it I donít know what the training week/month looks like leading up to that race pace brick, or the week after.

I think youíre doing a much higher volume 12hrs/wk?

When Inwas doing that, Iíd finish a 3 week training stint with a long ride or long brick, but I didnt doing at race pace, just aerobic zones, nose breathing stuff, then the next week was my recovery week before ramping up again. I think that worked for me, and fits most peopleís approach for high volume training.

If you include stretching which I am trying to do more of about 13...ish.
It is a hard session and I certainly tone it down a few days beforehand swim core stretch the days afterwards.
It is done religiously after a rest day and is the main focus of the surrounding fortnight.
Haver?
Half?


Yep, half. Iím probably not scared enough yet.


That's my big race for 2018 Smile
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