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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Why would you want to run in 8 mil drop?


Appears to make zero difference to my running, I actually mostly run in 4mm, but there's very little in the way of cheap lightweight cushioned zero drop these days, so when I want some cushioning, I wear the 4 or 8, little noticeable difference in feel, and no discernable difference in metrics measured by the garmin running heart rate monitor.

I find a massive difference in walking with zero drop, and accurate jumping/climbing but no difference when running.

If you're forefoot then heel drop doesn't matter much I guess?

I do plenty of heel striking and can definitely feel the difference when using my 4mm road vs 9mm trail shoes. Not only in regards to impact but also in the calves.

And yes, my 6 year old switches quite happily between flat school shoes and cushioned trainers as well. She seems to be enviably happy in either.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Why would you want to run in 8 mil drop?


Appears to make zero difference to my running, I actually mostly run in 4mm, but there's very little in the way of cheap lightweight cushioned zero drop these days, so when I want some cushioning, I wear the 4 or 8, little noticeable difference in feel, and no discernable difference in metrics measured by the garmin running heart rate monitor.

I find a massive difference in walking with zero drop, and accurate jumping/climbing but no difference when running.


may not be a discernible difference in the metrics you record, but there will be in body and limb positioning...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Jc
It's obvious .... it's running downhill?!
I'm getting a pair first thing.

8mm drop....

If you can shift, don't get blisters or an injury there good to go.

The worlds gone mad. I know the body and how to get every second out of it for our beloved sport is a complicated equation, but some of the hi-tech... do we really need this.. often have financially based origins.

Hope your running well 8 mm drop or not.


your feet may be, but the rest of the body will be balancing that out...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Why would you want to run in 8 mil drop?


Appears to make zero difference to my running, I actually mostly run in 4mm, but there's very little in the way of cheap lightweight cushioned zero drop these days, so when I want some cushioning, I wear the 4 or 8, little noticeable difference in feel, and no discernable difference in metrics measured by the garmin running heart rate monitor.

I find a massive difference in walking with zero drop, and accurate jumping/climbing but no difference when running.

If you're forefoot then heel drop doesn't matter much I guess?

I do plenty of heel striking and can definitely feel the difference when using my 4mm road vs 9mm trail shoes. Not only in regards to impact but also in the calves.

And yes, my 6 year old switches quite happily between flat school shoes and cushioned trainers as well. She seems to be enviably happy in either.


in the first case, that is not strictly true...

in the second - what difference can you feel?

and your daughter will be able to switch, the body is remarkably adaptable, particularly when young, but i would question why she would need to
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
may not be a discernible difference in the metrics you record, but there will be in body and limb positioning...


And so?

What functional improvement would I get through spending over a hundred quid on an Altra Escalante or something with similar cushioning and zero drop?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
may not be a discernible difference in the metrics you record, but there will be in body and limb positioning...


And so?

What functional improvement would I get through spending over a hundred quid on an Altra Escalante or something with similar cushioning and zero drop?


in the first case, i am surprised you of all people can't work it out and in the second, i am not sure why you would have to spend over 100 quid...
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, i am surprised you of all people can't work it out and in the second, i am not sure why you would have to spend over 100 quid...


I can't, I can't find any difference between 0 and 8mm drop on anything at all.

And show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, i am surprised you of all people can't work it out and in the second, i am not sure why you would have to spend over 100 quid...


I can't, I can't find any difference between 0 and 8mm drop on anything at all.

And show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid


did you not do geometry at school???

shop around...i don't pay full price for any pair of shoes...
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Thing of the Fountains




Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 252

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid




Easy. My turn:

Show me a squirrel solving a Rubik's cube Wink
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, i am surprised you of all people can't work it out and in the second, i am not sure why you would have to spend over 100 quid...


I can't, I can't find any difference between 0 and 8mm drop on anything at all.

And show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid


did you not do geometry at school???


The actual interaction is far from as simple as geometry - a tip toe walking child will never hit a heel regardless.

explorerJC wrote:
shop around...i don't pay full price for any pair of shoes...


Even getting to 100 is not full price.

The bikila is not cushioned - non-cushioned zero drop are very easy (and toes are bad, but non-cushioned zero drop are easy!) As are of course cheap shoes in small womens sizes, Men's 10.5 / 11 are quite different.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, i am surprised you of all people can't work it out and in the second, i am not sure why you would have to spend over 100 quid...


I can't, I can't find any difference between 0 and 8mm drop on anything at all.

And show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid


did you not do geometry at school???


The actual interaction is far from as simple as geometry - a tip toe walking child will never hit a heel regardless.

t.


Absolutely, i make no claim that the interaction is simple, but disregarding an aspect of it does not help...
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 2663
Location: Eating a Yorkie

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, that is not strictly true...

Elaborate?

explorerJC wrote:
in the second - what difference can you feel?

In the 4mm I automatically go further forwards and heel strike less, which seems to give me better form but whacks my calves since I am not used to it (and not running anywhere near enough to get used to it). My joints like this running style better but my calves are dead.

In the 8mm I automatically go lazy, my cadence is slower but I can go far.

I have tried going 15k in the 4mm but my knees got smashed since I don't have the muscle strength to keep form for long. I dropped back to heel which without cushioning wrecked me.

My analysis anyway.
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FoulOleRon




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing of the Fountains wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
show me a zero drop lightweight cushioned shoe at under 100quid




Easy. My turn:

Show me a squirrel solving a Rubik's cube Wink



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Thing of the Fountains




Joined: 06 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugger.

What do you ask in return? It better be work safe or I'm out of here already
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
in the first case, that is not strictly true...

Elaborate?

explorerJC wrote:
in the second - what difference can you feel?

In the 4mm I automatically go further forwards and heel strike less, which seems to give me better form but whacks my calves since I am not used to it (and not running anywhere near enough to get used to it). My joints like this running style better but my calves are dead.

In the 8mm I automatically go lazy, my cadence is slower but I can go far.

I have tried going 15k in the 4mm but my knees got smashed since I don't have the muscle strength to keep form for long. I dropped back to heel which without cushioning wrecked me.

My analysis anyway.


The angle of the foot at footstrike will be different...

15k without sufficiently developing appropriate form is almost certainly going to have an effect on knees and especially calf muscles...
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