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Referendum 2: The return of the #@?#
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

.


Did it?

i thought that it had been an extremely hard fought exercise for which the UK had paid a considerable price...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

.


Did it?

i thought that it had been an extremely hard fought exercise for which the UK had paid a considerable price...
i am not sure what you are referring to here ejc.

WW1 didn’t produce prosperity or security (except for arms manufacturers!)
WW2 didn’t produce prosperity or security. That was post ww2 healing of nhs, welfare in Europe, the forerunners of the EU/NATO and globalisation, along with the shrinking of our world through mass travel and internet.

What those wars did was successfully defend the potential loss of a way of life against an aggressor(s). Peace may have been the immediate end result, but that in itself did not offer security or prosperity. America taking the lead global role aided those significantly through establishing the rules based order.

How many wars throughout history have produced security or prosperity? Afghanistan? Vietnam? Korea? Iraq?

And now that western nations are en mass going nationalistic again, as America takes a step back and dismantles the world order it created, while China fills the gap, is taking us back to a highly risky place. Especially with the political trends in terms of style of governance that has been building throughout the West.

Unless you were talking about something different ejc?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

.


Did it?

i thought that it had been an extremely hard fought exercise for which the UK had paid a considerable price...
i am not sure what you are referring to here ejc.

WW1 didn’t produce prosperity or security (except for arms manufacturers!)
WW2 didn’t produce prosperity or security. That was post ww2 healing of nhs, welfare in Europe, the forerunners of the EU/NATO and globalisation, along with the shrinking of our world through mass travel and internet.

What those wars did was successfully defend the potential loss of a way of life against an aggressor(s). Peace may have been the immediate end result, but that in itself did not offer security or prosperity. America taking the lead global role aided those significantly through establishing the rules based order.

How many wars throughout history have produced security or prosperity? Afghanistan? Vietnam? Korea? Iraq?

And now that western nations are en mass going nationalistic again, as America takes a step back and dismantles the world order it created, while China fills the gap, is taking us back to a highly risky place. Especially with the political trends in terms of style of governance that has been building throughout the West.

Unless you were talking about something different ejc?


So, which peace has brought prosperity and security? this current period has brought £1.78 trillion of national debt in the UK ($6 trillion in the US, $3 trillion in Germany) and the very nationalistic feelings you are bemoaning...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

.


Did it?

i thought that it had been an extremely hard fought exercise for which the UK had paid a considerable price...
That was post ww2 healing of nhs, welfare in Europe, the forerunners of the EU/NATO and globalisation, along with the shrinking of our world through mass travel and the internet. America taking the lead global role aided those significantly through establishing the rules based order
thats what brought peace.

Now re debt, you do realise that...(and I don’t want to degrade the importance of money to make things work sensibly nowadays)......money is produced mainly by clicks on a computer screen nowadays. As is debt. You don’t even need to print it. It’s a virtual figment of reality. One which man created to make life easier but which now controls us.

As I explained a decade ago you could resolve the global debt situation in minutes if you really wanted to, all paid in full. On the internet somewhere I explained the economics and accounting bookkeeping entries required.

Doing it sensibly so that ruin doesn’t result would obviously be important. Can’t see it happening though, too many vested interests and human motivations.

💰 💴 💵 Wink
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

.


Did it?

i thought that it had been an extremely hard fought exercise for which the UK had paid a considerable price...
That was post ww2 healing of nhs, welfare in Europe, the forerunners of the EU/NATO and globalisation, along with the shrinking of our world through mass travel and the internet. America taking the lead global role aided those significantly through establishing the rules based order
thats what brought peace.

:


great, apart from the 250 odd conflicts you forgot...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This bit is worth repeating


“She also warned that Tory rebels who dance to a hard-Brexit tune risk ending up with “no Brexit at all”.”

This mornings Economist Expresso, re May at Conference.


The penny is beginning to drop. The more hard brexiteers push against the “Establishment View” the more likely they are to end up on their @#d&. It’s not right. It’s not fair. But it is what it is.

🙄
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Cataclysm of Brexit 'could lead to Welsh independence'”

Guardian.


So one result of Brexit could be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland becoming (after Scots and Welsh leave GB), England and Nothern Ireland...err hold on, once Scotland and Ireland leave, that may well encourage NI to leave, which would would leave...err umm.. England.

What a legacy!

Serious point, there aren’t many positive Brexit news stories at the moment. Methinks someone is trying to clean up Cameron’s mess.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
“Cataclysm of Brexit 'could lead to Welsh independence'”

Guardian.


So one result of Brexit could be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland becoming (after Scots and Welsh leave GB), England and Nothern Ireland...err hold on, once Scotland and Ireland leave, that may well encourage NI to leave, which would would leave...err umm.. England.

What a legacy!

Serious point, there aren’t many positive Brexit news stories at the moment. Methinks someone is trying to clean up Cameron’s mess.


There aren't ANY positive brexit stories...when much of the population still believes that the eu has brought prosperity and security there is little point wasting breath on other topics, not least those from the guardian...don't cast pearls before swine and all that...
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I just say that I think it is VERY unlikely that Scotland will go independent because of BREXIT.

The EU 'argument' was never raised during the independence referendum by anyone I talked to. It was not a factor of any significance.

Although Scotland voted 'remain' - the margin IIRC was around 60% remain - so not overwhelming. I can assure you that Scotland remains resoundingly Unionist despite the Brexit situation - although the vocal minority SNP tw@ts still whine and moan, they remain firmly a minority.

As before, I'm sick and tired of these bloody EU scare stories.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
I'm sick and tired of these bloody EU scare stories.
I am with you on this. I just want sensible balanced reporting. You know where facts override agendas.

Obviously I am loving it, but it’s not right.

But when the Prime Minister starts talking about no Brexit it does make you pause for thought.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry couldn’t help myself Wink

“Theresa May abandons pledge for 'time limit' on UK's stay in customs union as part of Brexit deal”

BBC.

So we leave but stay in. Ah the wonderful world of politics. I can almost feel the ERG boil with fury. Going to be an interesting few months.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Sorry couldn’t help myself Wink

“Theresa May abandons pledge for 'time limit' on UK's stay in customs union as part of Brexit deal”

BBC.

.


are we surprised? She doesn't hold any of the cards.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listening to the news while on the cross trainer this morning I was a little sicked to hear that it’s now all about keeping the various factions of politicians happy. Surely, given the people voted for it, it should be about keeping the people happy, not the politicians?

Idealistic I know, but what matters is democracy not political horsetrading. Mind you I was exercising and tired so I may have misinterpreted. But seriously this shouldn’t be about, by extension, keeping the cabinet together and in power and May keeping her job. It should be about democracy. Which, given the governments handling of it, is pushing me further towards a second vote, even though I am very uneasy about that.

Mind you they are doing a good (impressive even) job of keeping things together. But now that even Tory mps are waking up the harsh realities of universal credit (which is good in principle if not in practice), suicides, homelessness, hunger, injecting real fear into people, and as the worst of that is still to hit, even when Brexit is done with the governments problems won’t be (as by that stage with the rollout, their MPs will be faced with even more harsh realities of their policies). John Major is correct it is likely to be like the poll tax in its effect on the party.

Even though I am increasingly at the harsh pointy end, I will admit part of me is fascinated at how the Conservative party can keep going through such obvious exhaustion. It really does remind me of the aftermath of the Profumo affair.

I will say one thing for May she is good at keeping all those straws from being the final one. One day this government is going to make a fascinating case study.

And hopefully one day the Conservative party will decide to stop repeating their historic mistakes and take positive forward steps. Substance over form. As an ex Tory member that would please me. In the meantime I can only get the popcorn out and watch. Wink
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i hope John Major apologised...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“The Banks affair has strengthened those calling for a fresh vote on a Brexit deal. Ironically, Mr Banks himself now says it might have been better to back Remain. This week a Survation poll for Channel 4 found a 54%-46% majority agreeing. Brexit may not be done yet”. This weeks Economist, Britain section.

Does anyone know the background as to why Banks said that “it might have been better to back Remain?”
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