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Referendum 2: The return of the #@?#
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Gus




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:

In very simple terms, I think we have a cultural issue here; young people would rather say they worked for an investment bank (in whatever capacity) than work for the Ambulance Service.


I don't have time to read the pages on this I've missed but this is a big point.

Blair's 'aspirational' let's get everyone into university policy has meant a whole generation of people with degrees in Kim Kardashian too precious to do any hands-on careers.

Meanwhile, the skilled labour industries are desperate for apprentices. No wonder we're short of joiners, plumbers, brickies, sparkies etc..

In the old days, these professions were respected and offered non-academic people a really solid career with prospects.

Now snowflakes don't like to damage their moisturised, manicured hands and expect their life's role to be a celebrity on Youtube.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My son started as an apprentice print finisher. Now he is a printer and production supervisor, with a handfull of people below him. He has been asked if he would like management training. The opportunities are there.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
My son started as an apprentice print finisher. Now he is a printer and production supervisor, with a handfull of people below him. He has been asked if he would like management training. The opportunities are there.


The opportunity has always been there, it's whether people are either encouraged, or want to take them.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:

In very simple terms, I think we have a cultural issue here; young people would rather say they worked for an investment bank (in whatever capacity) than work for the Ambulance Service.


I had better not get started on this topic.... however, to join the Ambulance Service or become a Nurse, you actually need to do a degree, pay 9000 per year for 3 years, while working for 50% of your time, unpaid for a hospital.

It is a win win for the University and Hospital, University gets 9000 income per year, Hospital gets free workers..... the only losers are the poor students, who will come out of "university" with a 27,000 debt and go into a poorly paid job

I know this as my son has just started on his training.

Is it any wonder that students want to get into banking or management consultancy, rather than studying for professions that we really need
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
Jorgan wrote:

In very simple terms, I think we have a cultural issue here; young people would rather say they worked for an investment bank (in whatever capacity) than work for the Ambulance Service.


I don't have time to read the pages on this I've missed but this is a big point.

Blair's 'aspirational' let's get everyone into university policy has meant a whole generation of people with degrees in Kim Kardashian too precious to do any hands-on careers.

Meanwhile, the skilled labour industries are desperate for apprentices. No wonder we're short of joiners, plumbers, brickies, sparkies etc..

In the old days, these professions were respected and offered non-academic people a really solid career with prospects.

Now snowflakes don't like to damage their moisturised, manicured hands and expect their life's role to be a celebrity on Youtube.


In Switzerland, which I believe is similar to Germany, 60% of students start 4 years of vocational training at the age of 15, approximately half of their time is spent in the classroom, and the other half is spent working as an apprentice at a company. There are around 250 different vocations that you can study, and in order to get almost any manual job, you need to have studied for a relevant vocation.

About 30% of students study on a Baccalaureate program, and will go onto University

less than 10% of pupils drop out of education without any qualifications.... and as I understand, parents have a legal responsibility to support these unqualified people up to the age of 25. I think that the job opportunites for people with no qualifications is extremely limited (for example I am not sure that they can even work in retail)

However, as a result of this system, or maybe it is cultural, the quality of labour is extremely high, and Switzerland has a thriving manufacturing base, despite very high labor costs, companies come here to manufacture their "high quality" product offerings
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^...and thanks to Gove, in Year 3 they come home with ridiculous spelling lists to learn, and by Year 4 they have a crap-ton of homework now. Yet in the 80s we seemed to manage fine without homework, as do other developed nations to this day.

Anyway, Brexit...
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
^^...and thanks to Gove, in Year 3 they come home with ridiculous spelling lists to learn, and by Year 4 they have a crap-ton of homework now. Yet in the 80s we seemed to manage fine without homework, as do other developed nations to this day.

Anyway, Brexit...


My daughter, in year 10, is on the Baccalaureate program and gets about 3 hours homework a night. My experience of international education is that the higher performing students are streamed and loaded pretty hard
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
^^...and thanks to Gove, in Year 3 they come home with ridiculous spelling lists to learn, and by Year 4 they have a crap-ton of homework now. Yet in the 80s we seemed to manage fine without homework, as do other developed nations to this day.

Anyway, Brexit...


My daughter, in year 10, is on the Baccalaureate program and gets about 3 hours homework a night. My experience of international education is that the higher performing students are streamed and loaded pretty hard


Yes, but she's not 7 years old!

Oh - my mentioning the Ambulance Service was just a fortunate (it transpires) co-incidence Very Happy
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
As a generalisation, is it not that the british (non) worker doesn't want to pick the fruit and thus those who are willing to work the hours and live on a low wage are keeping the business' running?

Additionally, for years there has been a dearth of skilled trades workers qualifying in the UK.

Agree on these two points. I didn't really understand the claims around immigration resulting in "foreigners taking our jobs", as the average British person has shown they don't want to do those jobs anymore.

And on the latter, I blame New Labour. Creating a goal of 50% of school leavers going to university was more than just unnecessary. Ignoring the fact we don't need a population with 50% of everyone holding a degree, all they were really doing was putting off the fact they had no solution to youth employment. By incentivising people to stay in education they could delay dealing with that issue until they lost power, and then use poor youth employment as a stick to beat the next government with. Rolling Eyes

All my school friends who didnt bother with university and took up apprenticeships have done well for themselves. And I believe were some of the least affected by the economic crisis. If your boiler breaks, you need a plumber whether it's a recession or not.


The 50% uni is only a part of the problem. The wider issue is the dumbing down of education and the cultural shift towards 'you can be anything that you want to be'. Giving kids lots of A grades simply suggested that they could go on and achieve what ever they wanted in terms of job when in reality this is not nor ever will be the case. Additionally, for those who thought that they had some other artistic talent (usually reinforced by today's culture), the reality that this was not the case usually came too late to effect a meaningful recovery.

The 50% at uni compounded the problem too, in as much as it deflated the education system as a whole and opened up a raft of meaningless qualifications. It did however produce a high percentage of pseudo marxists who will continue to vote labour regardless.

In terms of the UK's lack of skilled artisans, in part you have the above to blame - who wants to get their hands dirty when they think they should be running a business, in part you have the scaling down of the forces who used to train a % of them, but mainly you have the modern working legislation to blame.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:

And that vote was to stop immigration of people where we already had enough. The point is that the people said No to businesses deciding who comes into the country but you're still doing the BS waffle again.


Many people voted to stop immigration because they have unfounded fear immigrants

most places in the UK that have high immigration voted remain, while many places that have very low immigration voted leave

There are some real concerns about the EU, and I recognize that these are legitimate concerns. However, arguments about immigration are deeply unsettling.

Comparing the UK with other OECD countries, immigrants represent 7.7% of the population, which puts the UK mid table, relative to everyone else, the UK does not have an immigration problem.

Immigration is a factor of economic prosperity, if the UK continues to be economically successful, the level of immigration will remain pretty much the same, however, if economic prosperity falls, then the level of immigration will also fall.

We may have a few more Asian, Indian and African immigrants, and less French, German, Polish and Hungarian immigrants, which may not be a bad thing, however, I suspect that the people who voted for less immigration would be horrified by prospect of more black, non Christian immigrants
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im(migration) was a strong factor in my parents voting Leave. I think the fact most immigration into the UK is from outside the EU was lost on many; even though it's 60 secs on Google and the Migration Watch website combined.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not long ago our nations realised that prosperity and security comes from holding your hand out and being nice to other people.

Now we are, in the West, retrenching into a go away attitude. This has clear implications for the future. All while China gains global influence further supporting the nationalistic approach. It does not bode well for the Western way of life.

While politicians play politics, behind the scenes diplomats and the like must be downing a decent whisky when thinking about the hole that the West has been digging for itself.

But back to Brexit specifically, got to love May, Austerity is Over....as long as we get a great Brexit deal.
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Im(migration) was a strong factor in my parents voting Leave. I think the fact most immigration into the UK is from outside the EU was lost on many; even though it's 60 secs on Google and the Migration Watch website combined.


And most people do not realize that leaving the EU will very little long term impact on immigration
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Im(migration) was a strong factor in my parents voting Leave. I think the fact most immigration into the UK is from outside the EU was lost on many; even though it's 60 secs on Google and the Migration Watch website combined.
Jorgan, do you think that they would still vote leave if a second referendum happens?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Im(migration) was a strong factor in my parents voting Leave. I think the fact most immigration into the UK is from outside the EU was lost on many; even though it's 60 secs on Google and the Migration Watch website combined.


the objection on immigration is not just about the numbers though, is it?
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