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Race1+




Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:15 pm    Post subject: New or Upgrade Reply with quote

The classic dilemma.

My 2010 Giant Trinity has served me very well. All my triathlons from Sprint to IM. I've been Retul'd to it, so it's about as good as it's going to get.

But recently I think there's something wrong with the cable stops inside the downtube. The gearing can be fine for 6 weeks, then it will go to #@?# for a ride. And then be fine again. Tried replacing all the inner an outer cables but the weirdness continues Confused

So I have been looking at Wiggle/CRC for a discounted Di2 Ultegra groupset. But then I spent my budget and priced up some Zipps and some Pro Missile aerobars and it came to about £3K. Laughing

But then I wondered about the hundreds of impacts the bike has taken due to our #@?# roads and wondered if the frame is nearing the end of its life and should I spend all that money on an old frame.

So I had a look around and found the only current TT bike I like (under £4,5K) is the Speedmax. Obviously it'll be newer and lovely and the bits it comes with are probably better.

I get the whole n+1 argument. But I'm still a little reluctant. Especially since Id probably keep the Giant for crap weather/Turbo duties anyway.


Anyone been in this situation? What did you decide? Any other thoughts welcome of course Smile
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 641
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can stretch it out for a season or so, I would wait to see if more TT bikes are available with disc brakes. Personally I feel that they are a significant step forward on road bike.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 1938
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.rutlandcycling.com/372120/products/giant-trinity-advanced-pro-0-2017-triathlon-bike-blue.aspx?awc=3395_1514973800_1c68370175109de0ebb204c517a8604f&referrer=affiliatewindow

No brainer if you like your current bike.
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 2837
Location: Eating a Yorkie

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
https://www.rutlandcycling.com/372120/products/giant-trinity-advanced-pro-0-2017-triathlon-bike-blue.aspx?awc=3395_1514973800_1c68370175109de0ebb204c517a8604f&referrer=affiliatewindow

No brainer if you like your current bike.

No go. My FFWD race wheels are black/red/white and clashing massively.

(impressive price for an etap setup though)
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 10151
Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Personally I feel that they are a significant step forward on road bike.


Another one falls for the marketing 'buy more stuff that really isnt needed' campaign Wink

Disc brakes are really good for that 0.1% of the time you spend riding when they are possibly of use and the rest of the time they are no measurable benefit. There is no empirical data that defines 'better' which is what people say they are, and they only solve the occasional problem of downhill Alpine type descents which if we are honest are a vanishingly small percentage of miles cycled.

Ask anyone what actual problem they solve, and when they say better stopping, ask them how many times they have had a problem stopping and the answer is almost always 'never'.

The problem is always the interface limit between the wheels and the road and disc brakes won't alter that one bit.
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2592
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn’t shell out £4.5K because of occasional shifting issues, if that’s what you’re asking?

And I wouldn’t necessarily buy a whole new group set but it sounds like it could stand some trouble shooting. Have you had a bike mechanic look at it?

New bike tech isn’t significant and you’re just swapping one set of potential issues for another, IMO.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
Personally I feel that they are a significant step forward on road bike.


Another one falls for the marketing 'buy more stuff that really isnt needed' campaign Wink

Disc brakes are really good for that 0.1% of the time you spend riding when they are possibly of use and the rest of the time they are no measurable benefit. There is no empirical data that defines 'better' which is what people say they are, and they only solve the occasional problem of downhill Alpine type descents which if we are honest are a vanishingly small percentage of miles cycled.

Ask anyone what actual problem they solve, and when they say better stopping, ask them how many times they have had a problem stopping and the answer is almost always 'never'.

The problem is always the interface limit between the wheels and the road and disc brakes won't alter that one bit.


As someone who's never rushed out to buy the latest thing, I'd still have to disagree to an extent Graham.

When we're talking braking on carbon rims, then there is a BIG performance gain using hydraulic discs in the wet i.e. on race wheels. I've lost plenty of time in the past nursing my old tubular Zipp wheels down technical wet descents; in the dry, yes the difference is way less if you're experienced. I'm also using my new Canyon road bike on wet winter rides too, because the disc brakes mean I'm not geting cr*p all over my wheels and wearing the rims in the process; only the pads and discs take a beating & you don't get that horrible black gritty sludge you do from rim pads.

I'm in no rush to upgrade my 2011 Speed Concept, but any new TT bike will have disc brakes for sure.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham
I wouldn't replace a bike solely to get disc brakes, however, if I was looking for a new bike I wouldn't consider one without

My CX bike has disc brakes, by road bike does not. At this time of year the difference is simply massive, if a car pulls out too close, there is almost no braking for the first second or so with cold wet weather and carbon rims. I have also had a couple of scary moments approaching roundabouts and junctions, when you brake and initially very little happens.

When descending long hills in the wet, I find that I need to drag the brakes to keep them dry, if not, when approaching sharp bends, there is not much initial bite, then suddenly they grab as water is displaced. I am sure that a cyclist, more experienced descending mountains, can deal with this without problem.

Even in the summer, descending mountains in Switzerland, I find that I have far more confidence on the CX bike with disc brakes as the modulation is so much better.

So I still ride my road bike in the winter, in the cold and wet, and occasionally snow, I am aware of the limitations of my bike brakes, however, I know that cycling at this time of year would be a little more pleasurable with disc brakes, and for this reason my next road bike / TT bike will have discs
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably worth noting Graham lives in the UAE Smile
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
there is almost no braking for the first second or so with cold wet weather and carbon rims. I have also had a couple of scary moments approaching roundabouts and junctions, when you brake and initially very little happens.


So why are you riding Carbon rims? Question Confused Question
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 641
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
there is almost no braking for the first second or so with cold wet weather and carbon rims. I have also had a couple of scary moments approaching roundabouts and junctions, when you brake and initially very little happens.


So why are you riding Carbon rims? Question Confused Question


Because I have no others, but it is a fair point, maybe I should buy some decent alloy wheels for winter
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
there is almost no braking for the first second or so with cold wet weather and carbon rims. I have also had a couple of scary moments approaching roundabouts and junctions, when you brake and initially very little happens.


So why are you riding Carbon rims? Question Confused Question


Inevitably you'll be racing in cold wet conditions in the UK - pretty much at any time of year. Disc brakes also mean you can ride carbon year-round.
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Probably worth noting Graham lives in the UAE Smile


Indeed, however anyone who has a scary moment when approaching a roundabout is clearly going too fast for the conditions or the bike, or both.

But to re-iterate the point, rim brakes are more than capable of putting you over the handlebars. And in the circumstances where a set of rim brakes are unable to stop you, then disc brakes probably won't either as the limit is the rubber to road interface, not the brake effect.

Some people think that brake modulation (whatever that means) will stop you quicker on disc brakes when its neither the rim nor the disc that does the actual braking - its the friction between your tyres and the road that brings you to a halt.

If the road is slippery, and there is insufficient traction on that surface, nothing will stop you.

You'll find there is no empirical data on how 'good' disc brakes are - just a belief system because it makes people think they are better. I can fully agree that CX bikes need them as there is literally tons of debris being deposited on the rim along muddy tracks, but nobody can come up with a justification for use on the road in general in the UK. In the Alps, maybe, but again, the discs or brakes can lock your wheels quite easily, and what matters is how the rubber sticks to the road.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1084
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:

But to re-iterate the point, rim brakes are more than capable of putting you over the handlebars.


But to Re-iterate everyone else's point, Rim Brakes on carbon Wheels in wet UK conditions are NOT capable of putting you over the handle bars!

In IM Wales this year my brakes were next to useless. I wasn't going too fast for the conditions, I made it round fine. I did lose significant time moderating my speed down hill knowing if I let the bike get away the brakes were not capable of bringing the situation under control. A disk brake would have been.

It's a minimal advantage, but like others IF I were planning an upgrade having Disk brakes may solve an issue!
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15880
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
GrahamO wrote:

But to re-iterate the point, rim brakes are more than capable of putting you over the handlebars.


But to Re-iterate everyone else's point, Rim Brakes on carbon Wheels in wet UK conditions are NOT capable of putting you over the handle bars!

In IM Wales this year my brakes were next to useless. I wasn't going too fast for the conditions, I made it round fine. I did lose significant time moderating my speed down hill knowing if I let the bike get away the brakes were not capable of bringing the situation under control. A disk brake would have been.

It's a minimal advantage, but like others IF I were planning an upgrade having Disk brakes may solve an issue!


i haven't used carbon rims at Zofingen for this issue.... I don't have the handling skills of the top riders and need to be confident of making the corners which would require scrubbing speed most of the way down the technical descent in the wet...

i would guess you could lose a couple of minutes at least by doing that which all adds up over 3 laps
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