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r0bh




Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1603
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


I wonder how many TUEs you think are granted each year?

Here are the number for cycling (table towards the end): http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/

So in 2016 only 15 TUEs were issued across the whole of cycle sport governed by the UCI. That's not very many really, is it?

I wonder if - now knowing this number - you still think that TUEs are the great scourge of clean sport you thought they were?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r0bh wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


I wonder how many TUEs you think are granted each year?

Here are the number for cycling (table towards the end): http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/

So in 2016 only 15 TUEs were issued across the whole of cycle sport governed by the UCI. That's not very many really, is it?

I wonder if - now knowing this number - you still think that TUEs are the great scourge of clean sport you thought they were?


assuming you can rely on the UCI data, of course...

I wonder how many of those were issued to those who went on to win...
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
r0bh wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


I wonder how many TUEs you think are granted each year?

Here are the number for cycling (table towards the end): http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/

So in 2016 only 15 TUEs were issued across the whole of cycle sport governed by the UCI. That's not very many really, is it?

I wonder if - now knowing this number - you still think that TUEs are the great scourge of clean sport you thought they were?


assuming you can rely on the UCI data, of course...

I wonder how many of those were issued to those who went on to win...

Plus being able to take medications without a TUE if it's out of competition.
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blindcider




Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


As far as I am aware, there is some debate over whether insulin is performance enhancing anyway, some unproven bodybuilding theory about doing it with steroids to enhance the gains from the steroids IIRC. What is certain is that if administered wrongly it can kill.

Apropos of nothing but my wife is a type 1 diabetic so I have a reasonable awareness of some of the issues surrounding insulin usage. Pretty na´ve about other drugs TBH

It seems to me the biggest exploitation of grey area is the in/out of competition rules, a quick google search couldn't find me a clear definition of when you are out of competition (my google fu is weak on this). Is there a time period before an event where these are banned or is it effectively from start-to-finish of an event?
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r0bh wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


I wonder how many TUEs you think are granted each year?

Here are the number for cycling (table towards the end): http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/

So in 2016 only 15 TUEs were issued across the whole of cycle sport governed by the UCI. That's not very many really, is it?

I wonder if - now knowing this number - you still think that TUEs are the great scourge of clean sport you thought they were?


If only 15 were issued across the whole of cycling how can an entire pro team as referenced earlier race on them? I question those figures as an entirely accurate representation

still look how many high profile cases involve grey areas of TUE. Froome, Wiggins, Laura Trott, Mo Farah, Alistair Brownlee, Stephen Cummins, Callum Skinner, and these are just the superstars of UK Sport mentioned in the last year or so by Fancy Bears!
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blindcider wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
hammerer wrote:
its not no medication though....if its life or death or a serious condition then you get the drugs you need but you cant compete whilst taking them. If you have a condition that requires proper medication (and i don't mean a puffer) then you certainly shouldn't be competing on a world level as surely that's a health risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Novo_Nordisk


whats that got to do with anything. If you need performance enhancing drugs to "put you on a level playing field" then you shouldn't compete as an elite athlete whilst the body has those drugs in the system. Surely a person shouldn't risk elite sport and the pressure that puts on the system if they need medical help to control a condition. Find a job that's not professional sports. I used to be a bit more mellow but the systems abused so drastic action is required. It will never happen due to the comments JC makes above but whilst there are grey areas they will be exploited.

The point is, there is currently a team of professional athletes who race under a TUE to control their diabetes. If you cannot compete under a TUE then these athletes are excluded. What does that achieve?


Its achieves clean sport and stops others abusing the system. Whats to say that there are doctors out their claiming people are diabetic so they can jack up PED's? I'm getting old, maybe my T levels are dropping, maybe its ok to hit the Testosterone as its a condition that needs treating. Low red blood cell count, pass that EPO, Asthma or allergies , saddle sores .... So what is diabetics cant do elite sport. They have a condition that stops them competing, much like the 5ft person who will never be a pro basketball player of the 6ft 5 guy who will never run a marathon. Elite sport is full of genetic freaks, having a condition that stops you from being elite is all part of the game.


As far as I am aware, there is some debate over whether insulin is performance enhancing anyway, some unproven bodybuilding theory about doing it with steroids to enhance the gains from the steroids IIRC. What is certain is that if administered wrongly it can kill.

Apropos of nothing but my wife is a type 1 diabetic so I have a reasonable awareness of some of the issues surrounding insulin usage. Pretty na´ve about other drugs TBH

It seems to me the biggest exploitation of grey area is the in/out of competition rules, a quick google search couldn't find me a clear definition of when you are out of competition (my google fu is weak on this). Is there a time period before an event where these are banned or is it effectively from start-to-finish of an event?


testing at an event = in competition; testing away from event = out of competition
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blindcider wrote:

As far as I am aware, there is some debate over whether insulin is performance enhancing anyway, some unproven bodybuilding theory about doing it with steroids to enhance the gains from the steroids IIRC. What is certain is that if administered wrongly it can kill.


Which suggests that maybe it shouldn't be on the banned list.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
If only 15 were issued across the whole of cycling how can an entire pro team as referenced earlier race on them? I question those figures as an entirely accurate representation


The UCI doesn't need to grant TUEs if they have been granted by an NADO, so I suspect that's the wriggle.
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
blindcider wrote:

As far as I am aware, there is some debate over whether insulin is performance enhancing anyway, some unproven bodybuilding theory about doing it with steroids to enhance the gains from the steroids IIRC. What is certain is that if administered wrongly it can kill.


Which suggests that maybe it shouldn't be on the banned list.

Indeed. Stop testing, let them all dope. Darwin will sort it out sooner or later.

Sport will be more interesting like this. More power. Faster times. See if they can survive until they stand on the podium and receive their medal. If not, pick next survivor.

"Last years fastest time was by X but as you might remember he didn't make it to the podium. Y was awarded the gold medal and lasted a whole 17 hours afterwards which in itself was a new record!"
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IronVampiro




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:

Indeed. Stop testing, let them all dope. Darwin will sort it out sooner or later.

Sport will be more interesting like this. More power. Faster times. See if they can survive until they stand on the podium and receive their medal. If not, pick next survivor.


I do hope you're joking!!!
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:


Plus being able to take medications without a TUE if it's out of competition.


I suspect this is a large part of it.

I can tell you from personal experience that a short large does of Pred will jack your performance up massively for a short period of time, and is allowed out of competition with a TUE.

(ironically, for those people who have long term underlying conditions, it really isn't much good in the LT as the side effects are horrible.)
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because my uncorrected vision wasn't perfect, I couldn't become a pilot in the military. Life it would seem, isn't fair.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those of you who've been around a while will know the name Kevin Moats. ST have been rightly piling-in on this guy, who's just a first-class douchebag. ST shouldn't have given him the oxygen for that front page article (before the official press release). He's basically been cleaning-up IM awards since 2005 when he first started chugging T; busted twice now. Oh, and he's 'mirror man' too, the guy who's a serial drafter.

Article: http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Kevin_Moats_positive_again_8yr_ban_announces_retirement_6712.html

Thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Moats%3A_Let's_keep_it_on_point_P6538303/?search_string=moats#p6538303
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Because my uncorrected vision wasn't perfect, I couldn't become a pilot in the military. Life it would seem, isn't fair.


ditto...
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:


Plus being able to take medications without a TUE if it's out of competition.


I suspect this is a large part of it.

I can tell you from personal experience that a short large does of Pred will jack your performance up massively for a short period of time, and is allowed out of competition with a TUE.

(ironically, for those people who have long term underlying conditions, it really isn't much good in the LT as the side effects are horrible.)


WITHOUT a TUE. Sorry, hadn't got the coffee in yet (how ironic!)
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