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The naughty step
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: The naughty step Reply with quote

Coe
Farah
Wiggins
Froome
Team Sky
British Cycling
Brailsford
Various doctors

Of to join Armstrong on the naughty step
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all a bit sad, and it is a reflection on sport in today's environment.

Team Sky and David Brailsford push the concept of marginal gains, therefore it is not surprising that having found a legal way to use performance enhancing drugs, that they chose to do so. No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point. Is it any different from a highly paid accountant bending the tax rules to legally avoid tax? is it different to an F1 team adding additives banned in petrol into the engine via the oil?

What I think they missed is the big picture, the damage to reputations, and to the sport as a whole. Bradley Wiggins' legacy will be forever tainted.

Money counts, sponsors should vote with their check books, could the UCI charge Team Sky for bring the reputation of the sport into disrepute?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point.


That's only the case if his medical conditions were 100% genuine and not embellished/falsified in order to use a (highly questionable) TUE.
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point.


That's only the case if his medical conditions were 100% genuine and not embellished/falsified in order to use a (highly questionable) TUE.


What is clear is that it was a systematic approach to improve performance, using a TUE as a mechanism to legalise it. Did he gain an unfair advantage? almost certainly, was the medical condition genuine? probably not, but impossible to prove. Very sad that another hero bites the dust, in my mind Bradley Wiggins is not really any better than Lance Armstrong
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Stivrunning




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: The naughty step Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Coe
Farah
Wiggins
Froome
Team Sky
British Cycling
Brailsford
Various doctors

Of to join Armstrong on the naughty step


Any PRO CYCLIST having an unbelievable day mid way through any grand tour
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
It's all a bit sad, and it is a reflection on sport in today's environment.

Team Sky and David Brailsford push the concept of marginal gains, therefore it is not surprising that having found a legal way to use performance enhancing drugs, that they chose to do so. No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point. Is it any different from a highly paid accountant bending the tax rules to legally avoid tax? is it different to an F1 team adding additives banned in petrol into the engine via the oil?

What I think they missed is the big picture, the damage to reputations, and to the sport as a whole. Bradley Wiggins' legacy will be forever tainted.

Money counts, sponsors should vote with their check books, could the UCI charge Team Sky for bring the reputation of the sport into disrepute?

Sky and Brailsford didn't find these. This is exactly what other teams were doing. But Sky were supposed to be different and be seen to be. They could have joined the MPCC, which IMO would have helped. Maybe it was Dr Leinders that educated them? He doped them at Rabobank.

When you add the leaks from the GMC investigation into Dr Freeman it really does look like they were 'legally' doping and possibly illegally too.

Froome was average at best and yet now he beats quality TTers in TT's and prologues and the best climbers up big hills. I don't buy it. Bilharzia, LCHF, asthma are all smokescreens for the believers IMO. You can't just point the finger at Wiggins and leave Froome be, surely?
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SidSnot




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its all pretty sad really

Quote:
The definition of the term ‘clean’ in cycling is not as straightforward as it might seem.
The CIRC report noted that, “There is no ‘one size fits all’ definition from within the
sport of what clean means. The generally accepted understanding of being clean is that
an athlete does not take products that are on the WADA Prohibited List. Some riders will
take substances on the List but, having not been caught, consider themselves clean. Some
will take substances that are on the List but are not yet detectable, and therefore believe
that they are clean. Some riders stop doping before a big event and therefore consider
themselves to be riding clean. All definitions have been described by riders and other
stakeholders. The Commission heard that some riders also experiment with performanceenhancing
substances and practices that are not yet on a banned list. There is a considerable
amount of spin around what being clean means to riders and teams.”123

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moonmonkey02




Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidSnot wrote:
Its all pretty sad really

Quote:
The definition of the term ‘clean’ in cycling is not as straightforward as it might seem.
The CIRC report noted that, “There is no ‘one size fits all’ definition from within the
sport of what clean means. The generally accepted understanding of being clean is that
an athlete does not take products that are on the WADA Prohibited List. Some riders will
take substances on the List but, having not been caught, consider themselves clean. Some
will take substances that are on the List but are not yet detectable, and therefore believe
that they are clean. Some riders stop doping before a big event and therefore consider
themselves to be riding clean. All definitions have been described by riders and other
stakeholders. The Commission heard that some riders also experiment with performanceenhancing
substances and practices that are not yet on a banned list. There is a considerable
amount of spin around what being clean means to riders and teams.”123


They're all at it, all sports, all levels. Sky aren't doing anything different to what others are doing: not saying that's right.

Can you imagine this report coming out of Kazakhstan/Astana/Vinokourov? No chance.

Surprising certain sports seem to go under the radar: all the hoo-ha in cycling but in the biggest sport you have a convicted doper (twice) managing the team currently strolling away with the Premier League.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I hate Brailsford I'd have to agree with him on this one. An inquiry finds nothing illegal and still slams Team Sky with public execution.

It seems more like an inquiry desperately wanting to find something incriminating, failing, and then spreading out the sour slander as sore losers. In my view that unethical use of power.

That doesn't mean I condone the methods used by Sky.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
...could the UCI charge Team Sky for bring the reputation of the sport into disrepute?

I think US Postal deserves that honour, followed closely by Rabobank. Then further down the list we can start on Sky and a few others.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace - whilst I never have too much faith in any public enquiry, Sky et al could have put this to bed by showing their records.... they either have them and don't want them seen or they don't which questions the ethics under which they operate.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1592

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point. Is it any different from a highly paid accountant bending the tax rules to legally avoid tax?

I still don't see how any of this is different to pushing the boundaries in equipment design.

People consistently say caffeine is not a fair comparison, but why? It has been proven to have a performance enhancing benefit. There are numerous others that are considered fair game. So I can see why things that are not banned are experimented with. As I've said before, it is not black and white, and to view doping as such is completely oversimplifying the subject.

Your tax avoidance analogy for example...there is axiom level case law that specifically says it is an individuals clear and obvious choice to structure their affairs in the most tax efficient way. An ISA is tax avoidance, yet clearly legal. "Hiding" money in offshore accounts is tax evasion, and clearly illegal. Between the two, there is a whole expanse of grey area.
Pedro Peru wrote:
Froome was average at best and yet now he beats quality TTers in TT's and prologues and the best climbers up big hills. I don't buy it.
I've also commented on this before. That's just not true. His naturally gifted numbers at the UCI development academy were apparently off the scale, he just had no idea how to actually ride a bike or race. He had grown up so out of touch, he didn't know how to utilise his talent.

I'm not saying that makes him clean. But to say he was "average" in terms of genetics goes against everything people who encountered him in his youth have said.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not illegal not to keep medical records?
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
No one is suggesting that they broke the rules, just that they bent them right up to the braking point ?


Which sadly many ignorant people think is the same as actually breaking the rules. Its like having a speed limit of 70mph and complaining that everyone drives at 69.9mph all the time.

Law breaking is like pregnancy - you either do or don't, are or are not. You cannot be 'a little bit pregnant' any more than you can be 'technically legal'.

Like those that want all tax evasion and avoidance stopped but fail to understand that would mean the end of the ISA scheme, or any other legal scheme.

Rules are rules and people can take their alleged 'morals' and shove them where the sun doesn't shine and do the job properly and write the rules correctly..
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
they either have them and don't want them seen or they don't which questions the ethics under which they operate.


So for example, would it be reasonable to assume you are a criminal who is fiddling their income returns because you refuse to post your pay slips on here for all to see ?

Of course not - the law does not allow you to make implied guilt for very good reason.
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Last edited by GrahamO on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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