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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
The Sky/BC affair potentially has a way to run yet, and given what cycling has been through in the last 10 years, I'd say it's a bit early to be insulting people with different opinions to yourself.


Par for the course.
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem comes in the difference between known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.

Most people can agree on the factual side of the known knowns (e.g. Wiggins had a TUE).
The known unknowns - what was in the jiffy bag, did Wiggins really need the TUE, are known by all that they are unknown - in the public domain at least.
Which is where opinion comes in.
The problem comes when some people are willing to cast judgment over unknowns, often simply because they are unknown and those people believe they shouldn't be. Others think judgment should be withheld (I am of the latter.)

Then there are unknown unknowns - #@?# which people don't even realise they don't know, like the rest of Sky's doping routine (if they have one).

Apologies for multiple use of known and unknown Wink
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
The problem comes in the difference between known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.

Most people can agree on the factual side of the known knowns (e.g. Wiggins had a TUE).
The known unknowns - what was in the jiffy bag, did Wiggins really need the TUE, are known by all that they are unknown - in the public domain at least.
Which is where opinion comes in.
The problem comes when some people are willing to cast judgment over unknowns, often simply because they are unknown and those people believe they shouldn't be. Others think judgment should be withheld (I am of the latter.)

Then there are unknown unknowns - #@?# which people don't even realise they don't know, like the rest of Sky's doping routine (if they have one).

Apologies for multiple use of known and unknown Wink


or you can use your judgement based on the knowns as reported which include the lack of lack of oversight:

There was no process to record what pharmaceutical products and medical supplies were stored by British Cycling at the Manchester Velodrome or elsewhere, and what was checked in and out of the medical room on site […] The medical room […] was chaotic and disorganised—there was no apparent filing system and papers were just piled up in cupboards and filing cabinets.”115

UKAD also noted that they “found little, if any evidence of supervision or executive oversight of the Team Doctors (Dr Freeman and Dr Steve Peters) by British Cycling.”116 Even more seriously, UKAD stated in their letter that British Cycling’s actions could have compromised their investigation. They wrote, “Despite being aware of the allegations in relation to the 2011 ‘package’ British Cycling was slow to inform UKAD of these, in fact, contact on this matter was made at UKAD’s instigation. Contact by British Cycling with some members of staff at British Cycling, prior to informing UKAD could have potentially compromised our investigation with the possible loss of data evidence”.

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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see that as a big deal.

Sure, it's not perfect, or best practice, but in itself it's not illegal.
And that's the point really (imho), it's not illegal.

Yeah, it probably covers a multitude of sins, but I will continue to reserve judgment until some facts of (illegal not ethical) cheating emerge. I took the same position on Armstrong and don't 'regret it', I'd do the same again (you could argue that I am!).
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
The Sky/BC affair potentially has a way to run yet, and given what cycling has been through in the last 10 years, I'd say it's a bit early to be insulting people with different opinions to yourself.

Hell no, bring it on. Much more entertaining morning reading.

And you're wrong. Tw@t.
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is v interesting. Interview with DB in 2009. Lots of 'grey areas' reading between the lines, even back then!

http://www.velonews.com/2018/03/news/commentary-eight-years-spent-covering-team-sky_458885
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
I don't see that as a big deal.

Sure, it's not perfect, or best practice, but in itself it's not illegal.
And that's the point really (imho), it's not illegal.

Yeah, it probably covers a multitude of sins, but I will continue to reserve judgment until some facts of (illegal not ethical) cheating emerge. I took the same position on Armstrong and don't 'regret it', I'd do the same again (you could argue that I am!).


I don't share their confidence about use of medical practices when they didn't keep appropriate records...

It may not be illegal, but it certainly conflicts with standard medical practice...
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SidSnot




Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were any doping rules broken in any of this?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidSnot wrote:
Were any doping rules broken in any of this?


who knows for sure?
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
Were any doping rules broken in any of this?


who knows for sure?

The doctors who would have administered it, and/or the athletes. And they're saying no. And since the inquiry found nothing to contradict this, no rules broken.

Unless of course you live in Russia. Then it would either be legal, or you would have been ordered to take the drugs, or ordered to undermine the democratic values by which the opponents work by spreading unsupported claims. Unless they already do this themselves, in which case you're out of a job.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
Were any doping rules broken in any of this?


who knows for sure?

The doctors who would have administered it, and/or the athletes. And they're saying no. And since the inquiry found nothing to contradict this, no rules broken.
.


Medical rules - almost certainly

Governance rules - almost certainly

and one doctor is now not saying until he sees what additional evidence there is...so, not so confident in that one...
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
Were any doping rules broken in any of this?


who knows for sure?


And that's the point. No one knows for sure. And the world can't turn on hearsay and guesses.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
Were any doping rules broken in any of this?


who knows for sure?


And that's the point. No one knows for sure. And the world can't turn on hearsay and guesses.


well, they have had several chances to be upfront and honest about it...
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moral maze has a good stab at this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qk11
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
Moral maze has a good stab at this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qk11


interesting chatter...
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