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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
fenix wrote:

She's taken Johnson in anyway and isn't letting him off the hook - so possibly she is playing a game.


Ha. Boris who was conveniently out of the country on undisclosed business for the Heathrow 3rd Runway vote.


how on earth can more traffic be a viable solution to the problem of air travel in this country...a bit like HS2 will resolve the communications problems...
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
how on earth can more traffic be a viable solution to the problem of air travel in this country...a bit like HS2 will resolve the communications problems...


Its a solution to the demand for business coming through the Heathrow area. Business needs the capacity and the capacity will have to be built because the business doesnt want to go to the Isle of Sheppey, Gatwick or Stansted.

Heathrow is full and the demand exceeds the capacity so the problem to be solved is more capacity at Heathrow and you do that with a third runway, not building capacity in places that business doesnt want or need.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the problem passenger or aircraft handling capacity (or both). Because larger aeroplane passenger carrying capacity would address the latter, to some extent i.e. bigger jets, or less First/Business seats Wink
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Heathrow is full and the demand exceeds the capacity so the problem to be solved is more capacity at Heathrow and you do that with a third runway, not building capacity in places that business doesnt want or need.


Or you put the price up and increase profits!
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Is the problem passenger or aircraft handling capacity (or both). Because larger aeroplane passenger carrying capacity would address the latter, to some extent i.e. bigger jets, or less First/Business seats Wink


Terminal 5 was about passenger handling. The 3rd runway is about adding more planes. The trend is smaller planes to more local destinations, rather than big planes to hubs and a transfer to your destination. It's just that London is the only place in UK that anyone wants to visit, and Heathrow is the only airport that London visitors want to use.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
The trend is smaller planes to more local destinations, rather than big planes to hubs and a transfer to your destination. It's just that London is the only place in UK that anyone wants to visit, and Heathrow is the only airport that London visitors want to use.


The largest airline in Europe and largest international airline doesn't have a single flight at heathrow, despite lots from London.

Many more passengers fly not through LHR (it just over 50% of the passengers through london airports, but it's 25% transfer whereas the others are less being more O&D) So suggesting that no-one wants to use the others is crazy. In any case, simply make them pay more, those 25% transfer must surely be able to move to transfer somewhere else.

Just because "the trend" is to smaller planes and direct flights due to the externalities not being fairly priced, doesn't mean you increase the externalities even more.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
Heathrow is full and the demand exceeds the capacity so the problem to be solved is more capacity at Heathrow and you do that with a third runway, not building capacity in places that business doesnt want or need.


Or you put the price up and increase profits!


And have people fly to other countries and take their business with them ?

We have a demand for business and in the Uk and you think its a good idea to send that demand to other countries ?
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
The trend is smaller planes to more local destinations, rather than big planes to hubs and a transfer to your destination.


Not for business it isnt - thats holiday traffic.

Hub and spoke still works very well across the world. The busiest airport is Dubai and it only has two runways but it uses A380's increasingly to get traffic levels up. It has its spoke connections are a remote terminal on the other side of the runway - not 50 miles away.

Best emulate the world leaders, not the St Swithins aerodrome approach.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
And have people fly to other countries and take their business with them ?

We have a demand for business and in the Uk and you think its a good idea to send that demand to other countries ?


The transfer passengers - yes, they're not coming here anyway - so nothing is lost.

The others, well they'll fly here anyway, they're coming to do business the cost of the flight is a tiny part of it, Heathrow is already the most expensive large airport in the world to fly to, and the UK's APD already the most expensive tax. Whilst flights are certainly useful to business, London is already the most connected city, and a larger heathrow will not connect it more.

Dubai is very much unique because of its location, you can't run the same Hub from Western Europe, it's in the wrong place, trying to copy Dubai is madness, it exists because of structural advantages that the UK does not have, much better to go with the same structural advantages - a massive O&D premium market, the Europe transfer passengers can be somewhere cheaper (DUB / HEL / IST / MAD perhaps as being more natural points of distribution in Europe) and longer distance hubs, you're not going to unseat Dubai.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
The transfer passengers - yes, they're not coming here anyway - so nothing is lost


Wrong - their APD subsidises the rest.

jibberjim wrote:
The others, well they'll fly here anyway, they're coming to do business the cost of the flight is a tiny part of it


The hours of delays is not part of it and thats what the constraint is.

jibberjim wrote:
Heathrow is already the most expensive large airport in the world to fly to, and the UK's APD already the most expensive tax.


APD can drop when the throughput increases because the fixed costs get divided up by a larger number of passengers


jibberjim wrote:
Whilst flights are certainly useful to business, London is already the most connected city, and a larger heathrow will not connect it more.


The demand exceeds the capacity Industry and Torism says so. Which bit don't you understand? More people want to come on business and more on holidays and there isnt the capacity. Stop assuming what you want is what others want.


jibberjim wrote:
Dubai is very much unique because of its location, you can't run the same Hub from Western Europe, it's in the wrong place, trying to copy Dubai is madness, it exists because of structural advantages that the UK does not have, much better to go with the same structural advantages - a massive O&D premium market, the Europe transfer passengers can be somewhere cheaper (DUB / HEL / IST / MAD perhaps as being more natural points of distribution in Europe) and longer distance hubs, you're not going to unseat Dubai.


I illustrated Dubai as an example of why a third runway is needed as one can do more with two runways but only if you increase aircraft size. The structural advantages are irrelevant. Dubai is building a 5 runway monster, not telling everyone to fly to Sharjah instead. I never said anyone would unseat Dubai.

The bit you keep sticking your head in the sand over is that people WANT TO COME TO HEATHROW TO GET TO LONDON. They dont want to go to east Anglia, the south coast or anywhere else that isnt Heathrow.

The demand is there and the Nimby's who bought next to the largest airport in Europe for the last nearly 50 years will just have to suck it up.

Having worked with EK and EY for the last 5 years out here, I probably have a better idea about the comparison than you ever will have.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
The transfer passengers - yes, they're not coming here anyway - so nothing is lost


Wrong - their APD subsidises the rest.


International - international transfer passengers do not pay APD - APD is only on flights that originate in the UK, the UK gets no money other than on the marginal profit the private enterprises make from the extra passengers. For domestic transfers the APD money will be the same if they change in DUB or AMS.

GrahamO wrote:

The demand exceeds the capacity Industry and Torism says so. Which bit don't you understand? More people want to come on business and more on holidays and there isnt the capacity. Stop assuming what you want is what others want.


So put the price up, and if you're claiming it's based on a financial return, you know that the financial return of a larger LGW was a better investment? Personally, I want a larger, cheaper LHR, I live in a great place for it - costs me almost nothing to get to, am sufficiently off the flightpath that I have no noise problems.

GrahamO wrote:
The bit you keep sticking your head in the sand over is that people WANT TO COME TO HEATHROW TO GET TO LONDON. They dont want to go to east Anglia, the south coast or anywhere else that isnt Heathrow.


So, charge them for the privilige... Stick an LHR tax on them...
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
how on earth can more traffic be a viable solution to the problem of air travel in this country...a bit like HS2 will resolve the communications problems...


Its a solution to the demand for business coming through the Heathrow area. Business needs the capacity and the capacity will have to be built because the business doesnt want to go to the Isle of Sheppey, Gatwick or Stansted.

Heathrow is full and the demand exceeds the capacity so the problem to be solved is more capacity at Heathrow and you do that with a third runway, not building capacity in places that business doesnt want or need.


more wind = more sail...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
The busiest airport is Dubai and it only has two runways but it uses A380's increasingly to get traffic levels up.


This is what I was hinting at above. I assume this approach has been looked at and dismissed as not viable for LHR?
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Gus




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
It's just that London is the only place in UK that anyone wants to visit, and Heathrow is the only airport that London visitors want to use.


Wow, that's a very big statement to make...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
It's just that London is the only place in UK that anyone wants to visit, and Heathrow is the only airport that London visitors want to use.


Wow, that's a very big statement to make...


I guess a lot want to do the whole Scotland thing(said in an American accent), but they tie that in with a visit to London. Of course, most will use hub/spoke to get up north, as very few direct flights; I flew Glasgow>Newark years ago, but not sure that's still running.

The last time I was in central London was 2006 iirc - I'm that (not) bothered. Alongside that, I think a lot of people who never lived outside the M25 feel the same about 'provincial' Britain, and live in a vacuum.

But yes, tourists think London, and then probably Scotland?
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