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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correlation is not causation.
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tommy060289




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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

surely that's a bit like saying ice cream sales drives hours of sunshine?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the coaching and advice thing. Despite my experience of endurance sports (over 30 years now) and a degree in Sport Science, I don't feel an urge to coach, or indeed offer too much advice to people. Yes, I'll make some general observations here on TT when I think something could be changed; but I have never felt comfortable trying to pass myself off as some kind of coaching guru on the Internet.

One observation I do have, is when I see a lot of coached AGers, it's clear their coaches give them plans but make no effort to address what equipment they use or their bike fit. Even online coaching, I would look at photos of them racing, to get an idea of that. When friends or colleagues ask for advice, equipment choices & set-up is normally low-hanging fruit. A lot of that stuff comes from experience, rather than getting a piece of paper that says you're a coach.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a coaching qualification does not provide anyone with the necessary skills or knowledge to conduct anything but a very basic check on bike position, nor change running form as the two most immediate examples...

As a generalisation, and in this respect I mean in terms of offering advice on training, coaches intervene too quickly instead of taking a step back and understanding all the influencing factors. This is one of the two main reasons why I spend much of my time on TT asking questions when advice has been requested.

As another generalisation, however, athletes just want to be spoon fed...
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hammerer
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Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
a coaching qualification does not provide anyone with the necessary skills or knowledge to conduct anything but a very basic check on bike position, nor change running form as the two most immediate examples...

As a generalisation, and in this respect I mean in terms of offering advice on training, coaches intervene too quickly instead of taking a step back and understanding all the influencing factors. This is one of the two main reasons why I spend much of my time on TT asking questions when advice has been requested.

As another generalisation, however, athletes just want to be spoon fed...


Yes, this! I have even been known to go into a small squad swim session and ask the athletes (generally older junior / youth high performing individuals) what they think they need to work on this week. It may seem like a lazy option with no planning, but planning has taken place and its based on trust having been built up between us. I still know the goals of the session but they need to own it with maybe just a bit of leading at times as to where we are heading. Its about guided discovery.
A lot of coaching also isnt about your technical knowledge, so much of successful coaching is about getting into the mind of the individual. It's about learning what makes them tick and planting those seeds that get the best out of them whilst keepign them happy about their performance and where they are heading
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lot are starting to sound sensible ... it's weird! Wink
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
In terms of determining the results of a race, the most accurate determinant is (or at least was at the time I read the report) body fat percentage, as opposed to height, weight, BMI, marathon time, eye colour, bike brand, coach, belief in electrolytes preventing cramping, etc. Etc.


Did the report really use determinant? Since it's not a determinant, but it is not surprising that it's the factor with the highest correlation to success. Those are quite different things.


Predictor. Of the factors studied I think it was body fat percentage the only physical measure that reliably contributed to predicting triathlon results.

Thought I found the paper last night but lost again. Itís all stuff I learned here though.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
In terms of determining the results of a race, the most accurate determinant is (or at least was at the time I read the report) body fat percentage, as opposed to height, weight, BMI, marathon time, eye colour, bike brand, coach, belief in electrolytes preventing cramping, etc. Etc.


Did the report really use determinant? Since it's not a determinant, but it is not surprising that it's the factor with the highest correlation to success. Those are quite different things.


Predictor. Of the factors studied I think it was body fat percentage the only physical measure that reliably contributed to predicting triathlon results.

Thought I found the paper last night but lost again. Itís all stuff I learned here though.


You learned to lose the paper on TT? Who taught you that, Sloggers?
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hammerer
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Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
In terms of determining the results of a race, the most accurate determinant is (or at least was at the time I read the report) body fat percentage, as opposed to height, weight, BMI, marathon time, eye colour, bike brand, coach, belief in electrolytes preventing cramping, etc. Etc.


Did the report really use determinant? Since it's not a determinant, but it is not surprising that it's the factor with the highest correlation to success. Those are quite different things.


Predictor. Of the factors studied I think it was body fat percentage the only physical measure that reliably contributed to predicting triathlon results.

Thought I found the paper last night but lost again. Itís all stuff I learned here though.


You learned to lose the paper on TT? Who taught you that, Sloggers?


If only it was a missing sub, he'd have found it.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
In terms of determining the results of a race, the most accurate determinant is (or at least was at the time I read the report) body fat percentage, as opposed to height, weight, BMI, marathon time, eye colour, bike brand, coach, belief in electrolytes preventing cramping, etc. Etc.


Did the report really use determinant? Since it's not a determinant, but it is not surprising that it's the factor with the highest correlation to success. Those are quite different things.


Predictor. Of the factors studied I think it was body fat percentage the only physical measure that reliably contributed to predicting triathlon results.

Thought I found the paper last night but lost again. Itís all stuff I learned here though.


You learned to lose the paper on TT? Who taught you that, Sloggers?


If only it was a missing sub, he'd have found it.


actually, he would have loosed the paper...
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1803

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
hammerer wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
In terms of determining the results of a race, the most accurate determinant is (or at least was at the time I read the report) body fat percentage, as opposed to height, weight, BMI, marathon time, eye colour, bike brand, coach, belief in electrolytes preventing cramping, etc. Etc.


Did the report really use determinant? Since it's not a determinant, but it is not surprising that it's the factor with the highest correlation to success. Those are quite different things.


Predictor. Of the factors studied I think it was body fat percentage the only physical measure that reliably contributed to predicting triathlon results.

Thought I found the paper last night but lost again. Itís all stuff I learned here though.


You learned to lose the paper on TT? Who taught you that, Sloggers?


If only it was a missing sub, he'd have found it.


actually, he would have loosed the paper...
Haha, now that's funny! That misspelling is one that for some reason just grates me, and Sloggers was definitely a culprit!
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This doesnít look familiar but could be it:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Predicting+performance+from+a+triathlon+event.-a019280449

VO2max and bodyfat percentage (skinfold)

ďconsider only the physiological variables (i.e., no performance history and self efficacy statements), then two items predict 52% of the variation in finishing time (equation 1). These were V[O.sub.2max] and skinfold. It is expected that V[O.sub.2max] and skinfold were good predictors of finishing time. An athletes ability to compete in any endurance activity and the Ironman in particular, is dependent on these factors. In marathon runners for example, with all other factors being equal, the runner with the higher V[O.sub.2max] score will be more successful. Skinfold measures indicate the amount of adipose (fat) tissue that is stored in the body. Again, with all other factors being equal, the athlete who is carrying excess fat deposits is at an obvious disadvantage. This is not new information but it is reassuring to find support for existing knowledge from a different athletic population, i.e., from a group of Ironman triathletes. A fitness evaluation is justified if it includes these two constructs. Ē

And

ďThe body fat composition of male competitors from the 1982 Ironman[TM] Triathlon World Championships revealed that the top 15 finishers had an average of 7.1% body fat, while the remaining competitors averaged 10.2% (Holly et al., 1986). A relationship exists between body fat and oxygen consumption. If a ten-hour race time is considered as a reference, then approximately 90% of the total time is spent in activities directly related to bearing body weight, cycling, and running. If an athlete is carrying less weight they can utilize more oxygen for the purpose of refuelling working muscle, rather than using oxygen to transport unproductive body weight. Race performance is more dependant on a function of oxygen consumption relative to body weight rather than on absolute oxygen consumption capacity (Proctor & Martin, 1991). It appears that novice triathletes should undertake training that emphasizes maximal oxygen consumption capacity and maintaining a lower level of adiposity (body fat). This is accomplished by well-proven methods of aerobic based training. Long slow distance (LSD) training in the three disciplines of triathlon is one such example. Body fat is addressed by dietary and physical training manipulation (Burke, 1992). Ē
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tin pot




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another more recent paper showing the correlation between bodyfat and race results:

http://krepublishers.com/02-Journals/T-Anth/Anth-23-0-000-16-Web/Anth-23-3-000-16-Abst-PDF/T-ANTH-23-3-406-16-1486-Bilgin-U/T-ANTH-23-3-406-16-1486-Bilgin-U-Tx%5B11%5D.pdf
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=mattsurf]
This is an interesting debate, clearly a lot of top coaches drive elite athletes to extremely low body fat percentage, so there probably is research to show that it does benefit performance, however, there is very strong evidence that extreme diets aimed at reducing body fat can have long term physical and psycological implications.
[/quote]

If youíre going to look at your physical attributes it certainly seems to be the best one. And when you look at the explanations they give it all seems to be positive from a health point of view too. Trying to address total weight or BMI without regard to BFP could be damaging. Plus you canít do anything about your height, at least not yet Wink

I assume you only have to be careful once you get down to the pointy end, but there are no specific target percentages. As someone who recently flirted with 19%, I donít think Iíll be carted into hospital for being underweight any time soon.
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Even as an indicator of general health, bodyfat % is by no means the definitive gauge.


I donít believe Iíve suggested that it is.
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